Transcript
Unknown Speaker 08:10
Well, it's 3:15 and we don't have—we only have a short amount of time so I want to go ahead and just kick us off in first bite by acknowledging and thanking all of the speakers for their, for the very thoughtful presentations and for giving us all a lot of food for thought as we're thinking about our track which is about capacity building, just to see all of the chatter going on in Slack has been really inspiring and it looks like we're already trading resources and information so a big thank you for the folks who sessions I attended. Emma Cassi Eli and Liam and Lyn, who attended the other sessions, Lauren Sophie Sarah. Matt of will Aelia and Grace Catherine, Catherine and Megan—two Catherines. So thank you all. So with that let's, let's just quickly recap I'd like to invite folks to to use the Slack channel to share with us some of like the best takeaways that that you heard with with the sessions that you were able to attend. And also as another prompt like what didn't you hear today that you think would have been that you think you would have liked to have heard a little bit about. I'll share with with me, from my from my side, before turning it over to Lynn. Always we've been dealing with a lot of trying to get caught up with accessibility best practices at the National Gallery of Art, and they just see a presentation where we were all sharing information around how to best address the issues of accessibility, not just from a technical standpoint, not just from a true accessibility and service to the public standpoint but but also just in all the ways philosophical and practical, really great to see that exchange of ideas so I'm very thankful for that. As a participant, and Luke and I were just chatting real quickly before. But before you all joined you know about one thing it's in a, in a track that that has a lot to do with finance and business models. I'm fortunate enough to work at a federally funded Museum, it is very much a position of privilege, and in during this last year I want to acknowledge that a lot of other museums in the US are really hurting in a way that we weren't. And, but, but I'm always interested in saying, well, it's not like we don't care about the money and how could we one of the things I would like to talk about in the future is, you know, how can we be held accountable for how we use the resources that are that are bestowed upon us especially taxpayer money. You know it's your money to write. And, and how can we do better as a business when we are not necessarily beholden to shareholders but, but to the American public. So that's for me but I welcome you all to, to add your thoughts and Slack and Lynn. What do you think,
Unknown Speaker 16:03
well, Martin I always enjoy. You're always so transparent about your thought and you just make it very, like, a safe place or break place was to talk about artha, buy a first one to invite a speaker, if you can show us the emoji just like the people now actually you are in the crowd, because I know so MANY people actually join us, you can raise your hand and you can send us the emoji Yes, pass the grace catch. Oh, Lauren. Yeah we have a really great crowd. As you can see, oh, Max, Catherine. Yeah, thank you so much, so this is really opportunity for us to come together to process our thoughts together. So I do want to make some space for Marty's comments on the accessibility I will like to stay in that topic for a little bit because I saw there's so MANY people on the Slack actually asked the out packs. So is there any way I want to continue that conversation and this is the space for you. Any questions for Cassie and sorry, who is another presenter, I don't think I see her.
Unknown Speaker 17:13
Oh was my co presenter. Oh, hi. Oh yeah hi
Unknown Speaker 17:16
I'm not Yes, okay. Any question because I saw I saw, there's a lot of question and reaction to the altchek Alpex
Unknown Speaker 17:27
Emma Do you want to add anything, do you need to jump in.
Unknown Speaker 17:33
Yeah, Cassie, why don't you start and I feel like Cassie, really, was the driving force for us, you know, I think we, before she joined the app we were certainly interested and wanted to do it but she was really the person who joined our staff and was like yeah we're gonna do this and let's figure out how so Kathy, you could talk about even just that like starting process for us I, at least for me that was really interesting.
Unknown Speaker 17:57
Yeah, so some of the questions that we got order about in direct messages and in the chat. We're about that staff buy in and how, how to get that initial commitment from your staff to do something that, if you've never done it before and especially if you're not someone who personally either has a disability, or know someone has a close relationship with someone who does it can be really easy to ignore how prevalent, the need for accessibility work is. And so when I came onto the staff. I had a lot of same questions that the people are, are asking now in the Slack which were, how do you convince the curators to contribute to this when they have so MANY other things that, that are higher priority to them. How do you, you know, do you hold up a project from launching until the accessibility is met if everything else is ready to go do you say that you're not going to launch, unless you meet that accessibility guideline that you set out. And for us that was a little bit of an uphill battle at first because I was pretty hardline and it was not necessarily the most fun and meetings at that point, because I didn't want to launch until we, until we had what we needed, and I didn't want to compromise on the fact that every department had to contribute to this effort, but it wasn't going to fall just on, you know, the education team or the interpretation team or god forbid me because I am not going to be accessible text or anything. And so, you know, I think that it was challenging at first but ultimately it was really rewarding because I think that we've come out of it with our staff having a greater understanding of what accessibility means and even though we don't always get it right and we don't always plan for it, the way that I wish we didn't hindsight, people are now starting to be prepared to ask the right questions and know you know when they're certain to recognize their own blind spots in regards to accessibility and I, you know, myself as well. I've learned a lot working in an art museum about the, the specific use cases of accessibility for us. If anyone wants to talk about time based media accessibility. i Please message me because I have so MANY questions to be answered but. So that's I will stop because otherwise I continue to but
Unknown Speaker 20:34
as he also did I mean I will say this in terms of like if any institution is interested in, in, in doing this and kind of keeping it up, Kathy did kind of right when we were starting to kind of intensely work on collections online, Kathy did about an hour long session for our staff that she did it on Zoom she recorded it so it got to everyone afterwards, where she talks through not really the standard for all texts but like, why does this matter, right, like why was this important to people how were people going to use it. And I think for a lot of our staff that didn't really know what all text was, they didn't personally use it like Casson said they didn't know someone close to them who personally used it, having her just talk through why this was so important to people, and so necessary as part of our mission really helped with that early buying because people just didn't know what it was or why we needed it.
Unknown Speaker 21:41
Thank you and any one from the audience would like to respond to that or, oh yes gathering please. I think you're raising
Unknown Speaker 21:49
a different topic, and not part of our survey, but one of the things that I noticed, anecdotally from the Harvard Art Museums as well as the Western art museum was the connection that educators made with marketing and communications, and how well that worked in the two museums that I mentioned. I'd love to hear about, if and how it worked for anyone else. Maybe not a question you want to talk about. That's fine,
Unknown Speaker 22:25
could someone summarize what was said in that session in reference to the to the, you're asking,
Unknown Speaker 22:32
we didn't talk about it in, in our session, it's just an observation that I made during the whole time that museums were locked down. The Harvard Art Museums had ready content because they had digitized during an earlier renovation, so they could. Their pivot was a lot quicker than some. But at the Western art museum, they had a very good connection between audience engagement curatorial and marketing and communications that allowed them to bring content online, in a way that was both fun and engaging. But thank you for your question, Sarah.
Unknown Speaker 23:19
Well Kevin to respond to your question about this collaboration between department actually I learned a lot from Lauren and Sarah's presentation on how they actually, I think that's erotic action is that bring publication and digital department together so I think perhaps Lauren and Sarah up share it because not everyone can your session and you give such a great presentation about the process the the system and how you strategically actually reuse your content. And so you don't have to keep producing it so we're Sarah, Lauren, like to share your experience on how to build up the capacity.
Unknown Speaker 24:03
Yeah I mean I can, I can start but um yeah the, the question that, that you just asked, Katherine really made me think because are a lot of our presentation was about collaboration between departments, and it's very interesting to think that despite the fact that we were all so far away from each other in certain in certain ways, collaborating across the museum started to feel like a much more lonely prospect during the pandemic, we actually forged some really great relationships and new relationships that allowed us to produce digital content so I'm, I work in the publishing department at the Art Institute of Chicago, and we've been producing digital publications for a while since 2014, but we recently decided to switch platforms from the side is a platform that we were producing digital catalogs on to using our own website, which meant that we were really in close collaboration with our digital experience department, not for the first time, but in a new way. That was really productive, but it's funny that you're talking about the marketing and communications departments, because we've tried working with marketing and communications, a number of times and I think, I think it's, it's one thing that you need when you're working across departments is that you need a sort of common goal. And I think that for MANY of our projects with marketing and community communications we haven't quite found that yet, but we have found that in our in these digital publishing projects because the our digital experience department really wanted to have new tools and build capacity for a website in a way that was going to be sustainable and to make use of the content that we had new content that we were producing and in on the publishing side of things, You know we wanted new platforms and new places to put this content out that we're going to be sustainable. So we had these, these goals that came together. I think often when we talk to marketing and communications there's an issue of audience where they see the slightly more scholarly audience that we talked to is not really having a ton of overlap with the what they see is the museum goer or the pain, audience, and that's, that's still I think our hurdle that we have to cross in figuring out how to promote and distribute the things that we're building, but I don't know, from the Mets perspective and Sarah what this like set spoke to for you based on her presentation or whatever else.
Unknown Speaker 26:54
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean I think we, we weren't, we didn't have time to get into, I think a lot of what I think are interesting facets to this overall project that that had so MANY parallel tracks, and one of them is that the Met, is one of these institutions that's known for making a lot of really incredible microsites and we've have years of microsites that have accumulated. And, you know, timeline of art history is probably the one that most people are familiar with because it's been around since before Wikipedia but there are MANY others at second and fifth connections. The artists project viewpoints, etc. And they, those, those are sort of digital publications right there, we call them micro sites at the time but they're go deep on a certain subject or kind of take a certain angle or point of view and they're beautiful. But then when there's no marketing or approved promotion or distribution strategy for those pieces. They really languish and they're the longer they live, the more technical debt you accumulate. And so, it becomes, these beautiful walled gardens just become that you can't, you can't get anyone into them and there's their, you know, to carry on the gardening thing, you can't even get the gardeners in there to weed the gardens, because the whole thing will fall apart, technically speaking so pardon the metaphor. So, you know, when things shut down when the museum shut down because of COVID-19, we immediately flipped a lot of the promotional spaces on our website, particularly the homepage to direct people to these assets and we had great engagement with them so we know that the content is still valuable, the problem that we're, we need to solve is the discovery of the content and the onward journeys for users who are coming. And I think, you know, that we got a lot of buy in from staff, who wanted to help us solve that problem because a lot of the content that's there has been written by these folks. So I think, you know, we're still trying to solve some of the marketing and distribution pieces to this puzzle. I think that's going to take more of our focus as we move forward right now, we're really working on getting the system to a place where the taxonomy is really robust, that the system can support itself it's bringing it into all of our systems, our technical stack that we're currently supporting so that we don't have somebody products that are dispersed. It also included kind of decentralizing areas of the website so that we're not the only content managers providing governance on the, on the content of our site. So, and, you know, one of one of the bigger endeavors, that's just started is, is trying to kind of find commonalities, when speaking about audiences across all departments at the Met including visitor services membership. Mark comms education and we all have different communities, so that's. That is no small endeavor, I don't know that we will you know because we're working at such a big scale I don't know that we'll crack that nut but we're, we're going to try. So, yeah, thanks for that question, I'd love to. I love talking about this stuff. I think Cassie
Unknown Speaker 30:50
actually have a question for us there. Kathy would you like to ask, or I can also read your question.
Unknown Speaker 30:58
Oh, um, yes, I did have a question, which was about the what is the approach to sort of sunsetting those projects, um, you know, because, and when I, you know, talked briefly about when I came on board, we also had a lot of microsites and one of the first things I said was this is not sustainable and are extremely tiny staff. But the mat, even though you've got a huge staff we also got a huge volume of these Microsoft so what is the strategy for sort of giving those the attention that they need when you can and then deciding when it's no longer worth the investment, even if it might be really valuable for somebody, one art history class that they are teaching, somewhere in the world.
Unknown Speaker 31:51
Well, we do a ton of. I will let me change my phrasing here, we talk about prioritization, a lot, the actual work of prioritizing is super duper hard. And, you know, I think there are certain microsites, that we are maintaining and just really trying not to break met kids is one of those sites we saw our traffic for family audiences and and youth audiences, absolutely skyrocket in the wake of all the closures. Makes total sense because schools were open and parents were at home, trying to homeschool their kids, and the Met is fortunate to have a lot of brand equity as a trusted resource for this, this type of content and these types of resources so that that is one microsite that we are, are, you know, just trying not to break and trying to figure out a strategy for migrating the content and representing it within some kind of a system, it's, it's different with that audience in particular. There, there. You do need some boundaries around these spaces because, you know, kids content is is has a particular need, um, timeline of art history we. That was one of the first things that we migrated over into our main system and we've taken it bit by bit we first migrated over the essays. We decided not to migrate the, the objects themselves because we have an online collection so we kind of rerouted traffic to incorporate a user, the online collection in a user journey, which is has kind of an exponential benefit because we get so much traffic to our online collection so it's kind of reinforcing the traffic between these two offerings. But things like chronologies hasn't been brought over yet, because we're just not seeing the traffic, and that that can be kind of a double edged sword right like if you're not doing anything to promote or send traffic to these spaces of course you're not going to see the viewer numbers on those places, so it's very easy to say well we can cut that limb off because it's not getting the traffic that the other spaces are so it you know it's just takes a really thoughtful approach artists project is one of the next ones that's coming over into perspectives we're actively doing that right now because it's such a beautiful well loved and so very relevant series. And, and we're kind of taking them one at a time, we're trying to make sure that that what we have is been archived and preserved digitally we have had a digital archivist who was on a fellowship for a while was doing that work. And we're trying not to lose any of the content, the, the framework, the software, we're going to lose that most likely but the content itself we're trying to bring over into these other ecosystems. Great question.
Unknown Speaker 35:28
This pathways gateways.
Unknown Speaker 35:30
Hi, yes, I had a question that we, I was speaker for the education program during COVID-19 lockdown, along with Catherine Burton Jones and since this is a sustainability, sort of forum, and our research looked at mostly small to mid sized museums. What we found was that most people were charging if they were charging anything at all, it was between five to $10 and something we didn't really get to in our session was, How do we make this sustainable for these smaller institutions and really what are we losing if these institutions can't sustain digital and I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on that, or recommendations or what they what they experienced or did
Unknown Speaker 36:16
you definitely remind my Kate, I really want to spend some time on that topic because not only your research and also I think perhaps Megan's research about the revenue generations. I think that will be interesting for this group to talk about how our museum generate revenue through education programs, publications, are there more alternative way to do it. So anyone besides a speaker in the audience would like to share their thoughts we are, we will love to hear from you.
Unknown Speaker 36:53
I, I was thinking about this in terms, as I often do in terms of how museums and and performing arts organizations exist, and you know this this this thought I mean, I know historically museums in their education departments, the, the, what you're charging for registration for programs and stuff it just pales in comparison on the bottom line to what you get per ticket since things like that right but I wonder about this because you're saving five to $10 Right. Well, at least in the New York, performing arts scene, right, you're off Broadway shows that 35 bucks, your Broadway shows they're $100 for a ticket. Right. And I, there are MANY situations where I don't necessarily see that the, what the museum is offering or has created isn't is any less valuable than a performance. Not that, not, not to the data like cast aspersions performance is another demand has to go into that. Right, but the, the staff involved and the time that's spent it surely couldn't there be a case made that the price point is, should be something higher. Right then, and I because I just I don't, I don't think people won't pay for it.
Unknown Speaker 38:15
Max that's come up and some of the conversations I've been having with education staff members so for those of you who don't know me, I'm a professor at the University of Florida doing research on museum education but I spent a decade as a museum educator prior to making the shift, and some of the conversations we've been having a lot lately has been about the valuation of education, period. and you know the the just cascade of impacts we've had on loss of staff, but also that people don't want to pay for education materials because they feel like it should just be available and so a lot of the museums that I talked to are really struggling with whether they could or should charge for their programs and a lot of them had a lot of pushback from their, you know, the higher ups in their organizations about starting these programs because there was concern about whether they would be able to drive revenue and if it was worth paying staff to do it because they were seeing it as a loss and so, there, there really has been a lot of conversation that it's, there's a wide range of institutional broadly issues and cultural issues around the value of education. I just want
Unknown Speaker 39:57
to say thank you for those responses and also highlight something that Cassie said in the chat that I think is important that museums are also, you know, you want to make it inclusive and people who are at or below the poverty line still need to have access to these places they're not, you know, this sort of place where we don't want everyone to be because we do want everyone to be there, so thank you Cassi for bringing up that
Unknown Speaker 40:18
point. May I invite that is your name Jack sorry if I didn't pronounce your name right, I think you have a great comment on the Creator autonomy. If you feel comfortable, would you like to elaborate on that.
Unknown Speaker 40:39
Well I just think, I think it's the way that we package our content I think it's the perception of the way, museums, present themselves. People pay for. I think people we perhaps aren't in the content creation game. And we, when people perceive museums, it's more of a transactional thing when they buy a membership they're buying it because they want to know what the upcoming exhibitions are well I get my value for, you know what I pay for, but I mean things like the Barnes Foundation, you know, and the success that they've had with with their courses their online courses, people pay for content, they will and then the fact that that masterclass class, and just the boom and all of these individual courses and skill sets and skill shares and things like that that have surfaced just within the last year illustrates that people will pay for stuff, you know, people will buy your content. It's, you know, I'm not quite sure you know I haven't given enough thought to it. In terms of, you know, how, how we as New Museum succeed with it, with trying to compete in that realm. I think there was somebody had said earlier I think it's the perceptions, the way that we treat ourselves you know like, people expect us to be free, expect us to be accessible, and we, we don't think like corporations, you know, we tend to think like nonprofits but the thing is, the myth is, You know, as a nonprofit, we can be profitable still, I think it's just, you know, more thought needs to be given and how this stuff is packaged, and, and, and selling the idea of the value that you're getting. That's, that's the key thing people will pay for something. And that's just what I mean like transactions through customers is, is just one way of funding these types of activity, I mean I think sponsorships and partnerships and stuff can can either which is what we're familiar with, at least from my institution we have never looked at content as a means of producing income. And I think that this past year has changed that for us a little bit. We now recognize a hey, is there a way that we can, we can fund these projects and be a content, I mean like, from day one for me, I was always, content, content, content, but that's because I come from a digital world. For everybody else, it was membership attendance, coming to the venue, and I think that was a big shift that we're, we're leaning into now is what can content do for us.
Unknown Speaker 43:34
Thank you, that's very thoughtful and I think Sarah has something to say,
Unknown Speaker 43:37
I'm gonna argue with my buddy shock. Um, you know I linked in the chat to a study that I referenced, just very briefly, in my presentation today and MANY of you will probably be familiar with it, it's Silikal the pocket Cohen survey that they were doing with silver Lynette, where the the actual report is going to come out in two waves because they were working on the first wave when the pandemic hit and the shutdowns happened so that it is a really timely look at what audience behavior is like when physical visits to museum are not possible. And what one of the conclusions in that are one of the key findings in that study is, is that when the barriers to entry for museums and other cultural endeavors are lowered democratically. There is more participation from a more diverse audience, and I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. And I think the nut that, that I want to crack is not how do I how do I become successful at monetizing my content, and more about how do I understand the value of this content to the broadest community possible. You know we, we are, yes 501 C three status as a tax exemption. We're not profit doesn't mean for no money. But I do think that engaging in kind of very capitalist pursuits, is maybe not a great direction for museums to go. We do you have other funding structures and other levers to pull. And so I think for me, I'm interested in what the researchers in this call are doing to understand the value of the content that we are providing, how we can place our content into communities and at a larger scale than is possible by, you know, smaller I have, I have the marketing power of the Met behind the content I produce which is insane. I have worked at small and midsize museums, most of my career, but even at the Met, it's hard to get the content placed in front of audiences that find value in it so I think it is about value but I don't think it's necessarily about monetization.
Unknown Speaker 46:28
And I would agree with you there. I think that there are big points point that I'm arguing is that we can't write off and say, we can't monetize, any of our content I think what we can do is, there's probably ways in which you can incentivize membership by having access exclusive access to certain content, but it's not like let's put up a paywall for everything that we do, I wouldn't argue that I, that's not at all. I think it defeats the purpose of what a lot of our missions, you know statements say, you know and so access is, is key. I think the, the argument that I would make is that there are times when we could add value to a membership which somebody is already paying for and it not be through something that's just purely transactional that it's not about an attendance, that it could be about the content that they're getting the class that they're able to, to, to go to and now gain is still about access to a community that they know if they're another artists I work in an art museum so if they're a fellow artists they pay for a membership level that gives them access to a community that they can be a part of. And then that content can, can, you can put content into that community. You know where they're learning or doing something from another from another artist and they're gaining a skill. I think that's the kind of thing that I'm looking for, you know, partnering up with with some of the people that are taking on the risk of becoming part of this creator economy, finding those influencers and individuals that that want to be independently successful and partnering with them so that we're not always creating the content but we have now a partnership with somebody who is taking that on. I think there's just, it's about creative baking, without compromising Exactly sir without compromising some of the core values of our mission, which is access.
Unknown Speaker 48:26
You know I love you, Jack. I, I was also typing this in the chat so I'm just gonna say it out loud because it's faster and I can't talk and think and type at the same time but Tim's comment about clubhouse and podcasting I think is really valuable, unpack that I'm somebody who's really concerned about data privacy and adopting tools we don't understand who's proud product in them. Well, I think, at this point, we know we're the product right. So I wanted to uplift Tim's comment, but also throw out to this group like how do we solve the, the larger problem of surveillance capitalism data privacy because there's major David data privacy issues with clubhouse right like if you were in anyone's contacts who signed up for a clubhouse account, you're you they made a ghost of you, and probably MANY, MANY sites operate that way. Yeah, to
Unknown Speaker 49:40
Kyoto, and good morning from altaira Yeah no I sorry I threw that in and I absolutely appreciate the data privacy and some of the other pieces in there. I guess I've just been really interested in, in my space where I guess in terms of my project across a lot of different conversations that are growing in terms of Pacific cultural heritage. And just seeing how things like clubhouse, or people Stelling using RGB reels to tell stories or YouTube channels. I think there's a really fascinating space in, in which digital has enabled indigenous people just be telling their story and to share their story. And I think to the point of data privacy and digital. I totally appreciate it because that's a space we working on both at the National Library of New Zealand, but I'm really fascinated by the people groups I'm across don't have any other tools don't have any other platforms. And the really powerful piece I have is, in my role is to be in I've talked about this in my talk last week. I'm the sort of this, the project we're leading is a really fascinating bridge between the worlds that you're all in these institutions that have 1000s of records. And, and Pacific people that really critically don't know you have these records, the line I gave in my talk is that, oh pettalia Feyo, who's one of our advocates from National Archives of Fiji, he said, it's one thing for your culture to be taken away from you, and Pacific people know that it's another thing entirely to not know that your culture exists somewhere else in a warehouse. And so I guess that comment around the rise of digital across the Pacific is in, they don't know this stuff exists, they don't know and none of Cassie and Mo still here, but they don't know for example, University of Indiana holds 2000 items. So they're just leaning into just telling stories and connecting in their own ways and I think there's a really fascinating opportunity for I think the glam sector to meet people where they are, but also for people to understand, you know the context of what all this digital, you know exactly what you said, Sarah, you know, we are the product, but I guess I'm always come back to the moment, there's a large chunks of the global population that don't have any other tools, and whose stories are not being told. So, yeah, sorry I'll stop there.
Unknown Speaker 52:08
It's a,
Unknown Speaker 52:10
it's a really amazing point and then it's really interesting to think about how we can use, how we can tell stories across museums, because I think that part of what is really interesting about sharing some of these projects is thinking about interoperability, and the way in which the way in which our projects can can speak to each other and create this sort of network of of tools and knowledge. So I'm just thinking about the project that we presented on is a journal that for which almost all of the authors, at this point are actually not museum, or not Art Institute staff, or we have an open call for papers, and we're trying to make a commitment to a sort of Digital Humanities practice where contributions can come in MANY different forms. And we make an effort to have creative contributions as well as written contributions, videos, etc. And one of the, one of the, our next issue is on data and some of the projects that have been proposed, are fascinating and they're sort of range of types of of storytelling with data. But a lot of them, just look at collections and look at like ways of communicating collections, thinking about provenance thinking about how you, how information in collections does get sort of siloed and packed away. And so yeah, I mean, your comments are just making me think about how important it is to tackle some of those issues and think about how we can look at collections look at collections across different museums and create different points of entry, so I just appreciate your comments and look forward to creating more solutions to attacking that problem.
Unknown Speaker 54:24
We only have a
Unknown Speaker 54:25
few minutes left. But I wanted to, to invite folks, you know, for just because we're done with the track for today doesn't mean that we're done having these conversations. Are there any parting thoughts or any any issues that you would like to see covered in future nCn areas, feel free to speak up here, or also to add your comments in our Slack channel.
Unknown Speaker 54:49
And I also want to second that. Thank you. I was a little bit nervous when I come into the recap session because that just Kynaston oh the awkward silence by you have been an awesome group. So I would like to invite everyone to four o'clock, there is a networking session, and I would like to end this session, any final thoughts. If not I will end the session. I would like to end this session with the CT from Yoko Ono. She says, a dream you dream alone is only a dream, a dream you dream together is a reality. I think we have so MANY people are like my dad here, so hopefully one day. This will be a reality for us. So thank you very much. I hope you have a great day. Good afternoon, good eye for evening, wherever you are. Thank you.