Copyright & Open Access for GLAMs in the age of COVID19

SPEAKERS: Ariadna Matas, Copyright Policy Advisor, Europeana Foundation Sarah Pearson, Legal Counsel, Creative Commons Andrea Wallace, Lecturer in Law, Exeter University Organized by the Special Interest Group on Intellectual Property, Museum Computer Network and friends from the Open GLAM community! The current global health emergency forced libraries and museums to organize digital engagement strategies, from #MuseumFromHome to making digital broadcasts. However, this doesn’t mean that copyright laws have been suspended from working. How do we deal with copyright in this public health emergency? What are the important things we need to be looking at when we make our digital engagement strategies? Where can we go to find openly available content from museums and libraries? How do we make sure that we can legally preserve some of the current records being created by these digital engagement strategies?


Unknown Speaker 00:00
This call is recorded.

Unknown Speaker 00:03
Now we're being recorded. And thank you, Rihanna, and Sarah and Andrea to join us in this thing. Organize this session. So I want to give everyone a warm welcome. Thanks for joining us. And the the idea and intention of decision is mainly to have a conversation around copyright and open access in museums in the age of COVID-19. A lot of museums and galleries and libraries and archives are going online. Last fall, a lot of questions around copyright and open access. So we wanted to have the opinion of our speakers today around these issues and how resumes and institutions are sort of facing these issues. So we had prepare a couple of questions. We didn't have like anyone joining which is not the case, likely, but in case you want to ask some questions, there's a sign that you can use to ask whatever question you might have and might arise as the speaker's showing up. So with that being said,

Unknown Speaker 01:25
I'm going to just

Unknown Speaker 01:30
choose the junior policy, expert on copyright issues, engagement, or Europeana, we have Sarah Pearson, who is general counsel for Creative Commons. And it's also a lawyer and knows a lot about the CC licenses on copyright. And we have Andrea Wallace, who is a lecturer a law at the University of Exeter, and is also involved in all sorts of open glum issues. So Hi, there. You Can you unmute yourselves.

Unknown Speaker 02:09
Hi. Hello.

Unknown Speaker 02:12
Hi, everyone.

Unknown Speaker 02:16
Oh, great. Cool.

Unknown Speaker 02:21
So we have seen that a lot of museums are now in the midst of martyrs crumbles or have to quickly implement ways to bring their consumers to an audience or a home. However, we know that copyright is still a big issue there. So what are your opinions? Where are the tools that can help me as you can separate the risks of audience engagement strategies,

Unknown Speaker 02:51
broadly speaking?

Unknown Speaker 02:55
And what are the most important copyright issues that they have to keep in mind?

Unknown Speaker 03:03
Who I suspect Go ahead. Okay, it's quite a, it's quite a broad question. And I don't, I don't pretend to have the solution for everything. And from Europeana, we're also starting to think about this. Because if I can just do a very brief intro, where we're also we're not there just to be a digital library, which is already a it's already fantastic. But we're also there to support the profession. So we want to be an initiative that gathers people with similar struggles in this occasion and and see what we can do together to be there for them. And so we're right now gathering insights. And this call is particularly interesting for me to understand what other people in their sector may be facing. So with that said, we're talking I so we're talking about the context of digital open glam, right, so like we're seeing collections going online. In terms of managing the risk. It's, it's not to say there's obviously that couple questions that arise when an institution goes digital, which are a lot. And I think this situation is touching on something quite important that I think the open glove movement has been, has been saying for a long time, which is that we need to we need to look at copyright from the get go. So whenever an artwork comes into the institution, through through alliances through purchases, by being made by the institution in itself, we really need to consider all the corporate challenges that are in there, clarify the situation so that then if situations like the current one that we're facing a race, going digital is much more easy. I think I have seen that many institutions that maybe do not integrate this process. You into their way of working maybe the biggest ones that they've, they've got this, then it's okay. But maybe there's more ones that we're hearing less from are struggling right now. Because clearing copyright has not been a part of the whole process inside the institution. So I think that's just a small lesson, but a good one that we need to, that we need to think about in the future.

Unknown Speaker 05:26
I can talk about

Unknown Speaker 05:29
let's go around and see what others think.

Unknown Speaker 05:35
I can I can add a little bit because this is a really broad question, I was trying to think of how I would begin to tackle it. And I guess, for me, it's always helpful to kind of divide issues or divide things up into buckets or categories. And so, you know, copyright issues are relatively simple when you're talking about stuff that that the museum owns, or that's in the public domain, you know, so that you can kind of cordon off, that is one easier category. And then there's another category is, you know, stuff that copyrighted works that you don't don't, and so there, you're going to either need permission to do what you're going to do, whether it's under a CC license, or, you know, some sort of Express agreement with the copyright holder, or rely on an exception or limitation. And in that context, so I know the most about fair use, because I'm a US lawyer. And so that's the exception and limitation I'm most familiar with. And there, we may end up talking in more depth about about fair use. But the the most essential factor there is thinking about the purpose and character of what it is that you're doing. And in these circumstances, with this public health emergency, where people you know, we're physical access to the works, is not an option. Obviously, your fair use argument is a lot stronger in this time. But I think that doesn't mean that, that it's just, you know, foolproof by any means. I think that the things to the things that I would think about, from a fair use perspective, when using copyrighted material in this context, are really thinking about why you're using the work. So, you know, there's, again, this is so this is so broad, because this could mean anything, but say you're creating something that is a slideshow of works and and you're adding music to it, for example, you're gonna want to be really careful about, you know, what, what music you're using, and thinking about why that specific work is necessary. And also then thinking about the amount of the of the work that you're using. Those are also going to be, you know, really important factors there. And then the third bucket, I guess, is copyrighted stuff that you're creating right now. And that you will be creating in these next few weeks or months, or however long this goes on. And in some ways, that is very similar to the first category, because in most instances, you will probably own the copyright. But I think there are some special considerations to think about, they're thinking about things like when you do a virtual tour of, of the facility, if that's still possible, or doing anything, inside an institution where you might be capturing copyrighted works in what you're doing, you're going to want to think about how much how much of that work you're capturing. And whether it's purely if it's just purely incidental, that's not going to be problematic. But if you're really focusing on a particular work, then you're going to want to think about, you're going to want to think about copyright and whether or not you're adding some commentary or doing, you know, having some purpose to to how long you're looking at that particular work. So I think that there are there are definitely still things to think about when you're talking about copyright in works that you're creating right now. But I'll kind of stop there and then kind of see where the conversation goes. We can dig in in more depth. Great.

Unknown Speaker 09:34
I'll add my two cents. So first of all, I mean, this is just weird and bizarre. And I know we all keep saying, Oh, this is so unprecedented, and no one really has any plans. But I mean, that really is kind of the truth of it. And I know we've been talking about this a lot in academia because we're all trying to readjust to how to work from home and how to engage you know, with audiences from home Um, but not thinking about this as an opportunity for, you know, productivity and kind of placing expectations, we might not actually be able to realize, thinking about this in terms of reevaluating, in light of the current scenario, how we're actually, and especially the need for connecting with people in new ways, in ways that we previously, you know, relied on physical access and physical social situations, to just kind of readjust some of that networking, and thinking about what the future of engagement is going to be going forward. So I also thought it would be great to give maybe a shout out to everyone who's on a digital team who's probably getting, you know, dozens of emails about a great new idea, or this other sort of thing, or,

Unknown Speaker 10:49
you know, I think a lot of us who are more technology literate are kind of becoming a source of support for our institutions at the moment. However, that may be. And if you're involved with the digital side of your institution, that's obviously a greater burden. So I think, you know, thinking about some of those ideas, and encouraging people to have them is really helpful. But you know, in terms of mental health, and thinking about how we're going to navigate everything else that's going on, it's good to put into perspective. So you know, with that in mind, thinking about how we kind of lower our standards and work with what we do have things that we do have control over and the different types of engagement that we can do, because we're able to start thinking about some of these things a little bit differently. And I think part of that one of the biggest questions is going to be about considering copyright in the content creation that institutions are engaging with at the moment, because a lot of it will be really great interesting types of engagement from the inside of someone's home, we might start to think about, you know, privacy and issues around that differently. That's not necessarily related to copyright, but the images or the video, or the output itself could attract copyright. So even though copyright will automatically attach, when we're thinking about the purposes of copyright, the incentives for it, and the fact that an institution may not necessarily see that as the type of asset. And it could eventually commercialize, we can start to build that into how we're managing the content that we're creating at the moment. So having discussions around, okay, so if we're doing these types of videos, might we choose some Creative Commons licenses to make that stuff available? Do we do a CC BY or a CC BY sa or a CC by and see, you know, what would be the different types of uses that that then could be put to, as we continue to, you know, rate remain at home, and look for new ways to kind of connect with each other, especially thinking about how content can be used in situations that would then apply an exception to the copyright of the institution that they may be claiming in some of that content, you know, so, you know, educational videos or videos that are made, you know, for kids to follow along and make art at home. If that then gets used, you know, for teaching purpose and exception will already apply to that in the first place. So might we think about how to license things a bit more openly, because we have actually no intention to commercialize it in the way that you we normally think about IP that's generated during this time. At the same time, there may be IP that results that absolutely brings commercial back value back to the institution. I'm so trying to think about what those different types of things are in those outputs. And ask those questions. Because I think there's going to be a lot of really interesting data that's produced over the next, you know, period of of isolation, however, this gets approached in terms of what new parameters around copyright and suitability then get applied to reuse and in a digital environment, especially with conquerors with content creation, but thinking about future proofing and thinking about how these are going to be media that then circulate and potentially get collected later down the road or, you know, archived as part of the response to what happens, whether that's by the institution and by other institutions, and thinking about, you know, what we do have control over which would specifically be the type of content that maybe doesn't raise copyright questions or the content that we're creating that we would have intellectual property in and can license appropriately for greater reuse, especially thinking that some of the stuff we may be using, you know, certain exceptions and limitations are all going to be jurisdictional. So they'll apply within you know, the United States if we're in the United States or the United Kingdom within the United Kingdom, but right now, everyone is turning to online and trying to network and trying to connect and circulate, you know, new things that people are doing. So I think it will be an interesting space to watch into terms of how we start to adjust our expectations around copyright globally. And if this forces some sort of, you know, legal reform or new thinking around what those cross border issues mean. But, yeah, more of these decades, this is just more bigger questions rather than any sort of specific things that we can be thinking about internally, but just flagging some some interesting areas that we might consider through the discussion today.

Unknown Speaker 15:28
Yeah, I think that's,

Unknown Speaker 15:34
that's a big one. That's the one that you just mentioned, Andrea, because I feel that there are a lot of initiatives that are going right now, like I am pretty sure some of the people that it's in the school has already seen the public Fair Use statement that a group of librarians they in the US, and now the Internet Archive, has also launched the National Emergency library, just to give access to students that are homeschooling now due to the crisis, so I was wondering, what's sort of your perspective on this issue? So should, Mitch, sorry, sure museums be doing something similar? Should be sort of saying, hey, you know, like, we already acknowledge that a copyright law has a lot of limitations in terms of what we can offer, and maybe be at the front of challenging some of those issues? Or should we take a more conservative approach and be like, No, we should keep on abiding by copyright laws and make sure that everything is clear before we do anything.

Unknown Speaker 16:50
Can I start? So yeah, yes, definitely, I've definitely seen the statements and ambitious initiatives of many organizations, which are really interesting. So and when I was trying to compare this statement to the context in which I work, which is Europe, and a digital library. And I think this statement is great, because it, it's a lot of librarians coming together to support people they work for, or work with, which are their peers in the in the university sector, for instance. And so they want to support them in their activities that they do now from home, to be able to continue performing online teaching. And I'm thinking like, who would be the equivalent in a digital library, like your piano, like, who are who is the sector that we're working for, and we're trying to support in this, in this, like always, and particularly now at this time. And so I'm thinking, we've got colleagues in the office that work with the education and research sector. And it's always very interesting and complicated, at the same time to communicate what people can do with our collections. In this sense, we rely very strongly on Creative Commons licenses and tools and on the right statements. But there's always, it's always quite complicated to make sure the user is really understanding what they can do. We've got, for instance, exceptions and limitations in Europe that may allow a user to do more than what the right statement or the or the license indicates, and how we how do we communicate this to educators that my my thing from a license that they cannot use it for online teaching, while they were they can actually do that. So I think, I'd be very curious to know how institutions are approaching this. Now that maybe everything is moving digitally. So a librarian who would often be there to support the person at the university and guide them on how to build perspex and what materials to use or not to use, now needs to rely maybe on more standardized information on a website. And I'm particularly interested to know help people, inform educators, researchers, and others about the possibilities to rely on exceptions and limitations. Because in Europe, we have some they're not perfect, but we should not forget about them. And also, I'm very interested to talk about standard rights rights. So rights payments and Creative Commons licenses and seeing the role that they can play right now. This time. Actually forgot what the question was. I'm not sure I answered it.

Unknown Speaker 19:40
No worries. Yeah, sorry. Go ahead, sir.

Unknown Speaker 19:44
I was going to try to I think the question was around whether to kind of abandoned copyright to some extent right now or to to remain conservative.

Unknown Speaker 19:55
To push the limits. A little bit. Yes, yeah. I? So I guess, um,

Unknown Speaker 20:04
yeah, my initial thought is to kind of be somewhere in between that I think this is a real opportunity, a really good opportunity to push the line of it and come up. So I'm getting a lot of feedback. Okay. Especially around exceptions and limitations. And I know that a lots of times, people are, particularly practitioners are, you know, very hesitant to rely on fair use, for example, in the United States. And so I think this, this is a time where we can have a lot more comfort than even any other time probably to kind of rely on Fair Use and other exceptions and limitations. And I think that that could have ripple effects. When this is over that we will kind of then see that the world didn't end, it didn't kill copyright. In fact, maybe it even made the whole system work exactly as it as it should. In terms of maybe this is, I guess, a second part of the question that we're not quite out yet, but thinking about what this means for for open access, generally, down the road. I mean, to me, it's hard to imagine that it doesn't kind of help even I think, for one thing, people are going to realize that in this moment, I guess two things, one, that whatever we do online doesn't ever replace, being face to face and seeing something in person and having a real human experience. And we're never, you know, we're going to feel that very visceral viscerally right now, and we can't have that. And so that kind of helps assuage the concerns that people often have is, you know, what if digital ends up, you know, what, if I destroy the market for my physical space? I think that is, we're gonna have a lot of reassurance about that. I think I think we're also already seeing how these digital tools are, can be, you know, really meaningful ways to connect with one another, and to connect, create connections with creative works as well. And so I think it's hard for me to see how those things won't have ripple effects when this is over on people's willingness to share more broadly, and whether it's CC licensing or not, but yeah,

Unknown Speaker 22:34
I think I first I don't think copyright is, you know, going to go out the window. And I think we're all also in terms of what we're doing in our positions in our jobs, very aware of how important it is to protect the value of, you know, the rights of the rights holder. And I don't think any of the things that people are thinking about right now, obviously, making some assumptions about that are probably the types of things that goes beyond that. So at the moment, we're still probably approaching this from a pretty kind of risk, adverse perspective, and also a sensitive perspective around the rights holders. And so, you know, no one's necessarily advocating for throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But we're thinking about that risk in the future of how we who feels comfortable to push some of those kinds of gray areas around what the exceptions and limitations allow us to do. And I think it I agree with Sarah, that there'll be some really interesting growth around some of these exceptions, because they will be tested. And I don't think that that will be the type of thing that you know, crumbles a copyright system, if anything, it can make it more fair and equitable for both users and rights holders. But there will have to be that approach, and that kind of, I guess, awareness of risk and doing some of those things and being comfortable with what that brings. So I would actually encourage people to embrace the risk around some of those gray areas, because they're probably not as risky as you potentially think that they could be. I think there's also a difference between the obviously the in copyright content, the public domain content and thinking about the content that's already created that we do have, that has, you know, IP parameters around it already. So from the museums from home is the hashtag museums from home kind of movement that's starting, they're collecting instances of institutions, opening up some of their catalogs and making things available online, you know, thinking about their own resources, and how that then can be provided for greater engagement. But I think there's also a big question here that obviously has to do with the spread of the virus itself. And who's being affected is who will have access to this and what worth thinking about in terms of digital and staying in touch, and, you know, social, I guess, social impact. Because and I know this, we're having to completely revise how we're approaching assessments. And we're thinking about how we can engage with students, because there are a lot of students who now have gone from Exeter, home to places where they don't have a great wired connection, or they're currently sharing a place with multiple people who are all using the Wi Fi. So thinking about how to build in different forms of engagement, even lower quality, so that they do reach other people in other places, not necessarily the ones that are local to you could be really useful and could be a way to think about making the access and the digital discussion a bit more equitable in terms of what we can be doing. Because, you know, in, in reality, all of this networking is actually going to push people who do have digital connections in digital access forward. And we're going to, you know, potentially lose a lot of interesting engagement from people who aren't able to access what's going on digitally.

Unknown Speaker 26:26
Can I can I actually ask two people in the call if there's, like, is there any particular worries that you're currently dealing with or projects you're thinking of that, like, from a corporate perspective can be very challenging, because I'm really interested to understand what you're facing. like Twitter, I understand what you're facing right now. And I see a lot of comments. So you probably have some thoughts.

Unknown Speaker 27:05
Yes, we can open the mic for questions. It's not a problem, just mute yourself and champion. Or maybe someone wants to share a little bit of the experiences that they're doing right now. Some of them are showing them on the side chart. Somewhere saying I'm finding is

Unknown Speaker 27:36
sorry, yeah, no, that's the one I wanted to underline. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 27:44
So Liam is asked, is asking, for example, I'd like to know if any GM has made a specific corporate policy change because of the pandemic? I don't know if we can answer that. Or maybe there's someone in this call that can because we have a lot of people. Has any of you made any tangible changes? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 28:09
This is am young, at the Indianapolis Museum of Art at Newfields. We haven't made any changes yet. But I definitely brought home my documentation on our IP and open access policy, which is due for review this year. And figured that would be a good work from home project to look at. Which one of the things that we're going to be working on with that review is actually formalizing our fair use, procedures and documentation. So I don't know how much of that is necessarily in response to what is going on right now. But I've definitely moved it up. Because right now, our plan was just to get that ip ip policy and adding in our fair use procedures and documenting all of that done by the end of the calendar year, and then said, we're probably going to try to fast track that and get that done in the next month or two. Well

Unknown Speaker 29:11
if that also sort of leader, a leader around like open access, in a way, because we know that a lot of people are now asking themselves, questions, should we call open? And as Sandra said, probably this is not the time in which you want to consider that question right now, because it's sort of the craziness. But in a way, we're sort of the future or the next steps that might follow after the crisis settle down, and how we can actually make more institutional change in this direction, or where the sort of questions that maybe we can start having us conversations with managers and decision makers or resumes. So let's to move forward the next steps

Unknown Speaker 30:05
I'm sorry, because I was reading Liam Liam's comment on like on your article and that the corporate party says, it's maybe a bit empty for now. But yeah. I'm thinking that maybe like, It's not the time to be opportunistic about these things. But But what what other people were saying just now is that those who have embraced open access, so maybe those are the ones who will not do will maybe not need to review their policies right now. So they can still be present online and engage with their audiences much easily, much more easily than institutions that haven't been able to with this digital transformation for any reason, it can be because of a lack of capacity, not really not have a lack of support for open policies. But so, because maybe there's no big change, that policies will require but but we can learn a lot from the open land movement, and those who have embraced open access, because these policies were already fit for purpose for a period like this one. I'm going to turn that helps. It's just a fact. I guess,

Unknown Speaker 31:24
one thought that I have is, I feel like it's really important for open access advocates to avoid any, any kind of you're doing it wrong framing right now. And, you know, like pointing out, well, that's not really open access, or it's definitely not the time for those kinds of conversations in my in my opinion. But what I think we can do that would be really fruitful is trying, you know, experimenting in different ways. And then if it's possible, trying to keep track of, of metrics, or at least, you know, it doesn't have to be anything formal, but just trying to do a lot of documentation so that when, when the time comes, and the dust settles, we can point to, you know, look what happened when we shared such and such, really, and we had, you know, this great engagement from X number of people and trying to get, you know, some case studies, under our belts during this time seems like a really nice way to approach it. But I but I guess I would just tend to really, I think we should be very thoughtful about not kind of pointing fingers, or, and also, frankly, to rushing, trying to get people to rush to really formally open in a CC licensing way their collections right now, because these, as probably everybody on this, this call knows, but you know, the licenses are irrevocable, there are lots of complicated rights issues involved lots of times. And so it's not something that you want to just you don't want to just slap a CC license on something without really thinking about it, particularly for these important collections. So.

Unknown Speaker 33:17
Yeah, I agree, I think it'll be interesting to see what those metrics are, and how they relate to open content. And if we can even Garner anything from that, because I know there's been some some bigger kind of open access announcements in the past, or he was saying that they're, they recently made a change for 3d models with CCC, relicense. You know, so there could be like a natural jump and reuse, but then because of everyone turning to digital and not being able, you know, to be as mobile that might actually skyrocket. So if you think it would be interesting to, to document those those changes, or collect metrics and that sort of thing, because later, it could be really important to making some of the arguments, either internally or for other institutions to make those arguments if they have access to those types of of data and case studies. But yeah, I think, I think also, there could be some interesting baby steps that can occur during this time. So whether previously everything was set up to be CC by and see that then because the rights assessment has been done, and the institution made the decision to do CC BY NC, they then take the next step to go CC BY sa or CC BY so we can see some incremental changes, because some of the work has already been prepared. But I think this is something that skin and I were talking about. There is a lot of work that goes into preparing collections for open access, and it shouldn't be underestimated. And it also shouldn't be seen as an opportunity at the moment because I think that's a standard that's too high for anyone to think about. In terms of how they're going to go, you know what, let's take our collection and make it available and open access online. We've got time and we've got digital content, probably incremental steps and baby steps or, or, as far as you should be kind of aiming at the moment, everything seems really risky to begin with in the first place. But I think sharing that that information in that conversation and networking and staying connected with people who are also going through those things will be probably the most helpful thing to do at this time.

Unknown Speaker 35:39
I have a question that I'd like to float by you clever heads. One of the ideas that came out of this shutdown is a good colleague in Sweden, who sees connections between Hamas Hi, Edward Hopper and David Hockney, the empty spaces that he feels resonate with the current situation where everybody's alone together. And he said, Could we do a digital virtual exhibition of these three painters do some kind of curation or trick to bring them together in an online space? I was thinking that triple AF might be a way to bring these artworks together in, you know, using this framework where images can be compared and add to the same virtual space. But I was also not certain about rights for an idea like this, because homicide is out of copyright due to age. But hopper and hug me are still in copyright. hubbers did hug me as alive. Any ideas on how to approach this? And how, what? What kind of, you know?

Unknown Speaker 37:17
Yeah, solution would be good for this.

Unknown Speaker 37:25
I mean, the artworks would be coming from different institutions. Is it possible at all? I just think I love the idea.

Unknown Speaker 37:40
I mean, I agree, I think that's exactly the type of connections that are ideal for this type of situation. And that potentially might be one of those gray areas that you and your collaborators would feel potential or feel comfortable pushing. It would totally, of course, it's a hate to be like the awful copyright lawyer who says it depends. But it does, it depends on the jurisdiction, it depends on the exceptions that are in place within that jurisdiction, where the institutions are located, what the licensing agreements might be between the institution and the artists if the work is in copyright, which is why you might decide to go with all public domain content to be safe. But then, of course, we start to think about how that skewing everyone's perception about what art is valuable, and what stories are important to tell. Because we keep going back, you know, 70 years prior to everything that's conclusively in the public domain. So we feel comfortable using it. And we start to then, you know, miss out on a lot of like, great contemporary enrichment, especially potentially more relevant for things that are going on at the moment. So I don't know where to I think that sounds amazing. I think everything you do is amazing. And so I would say just please keep doing

Unknown Speaker 39:08
that, yeah. All right. Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 39:14
I don't have an answer. It was just a comment that I got it like it made me think of something but go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 39:22
No, I was just I was just gonna say that I'm going to try and look into what which collections have these artists and maybe some of them are using the triple AF technology allowing, if not to reuse any images but just to view. I mean, if we could only allow a you know, a virtual exhibition where you can view these artworks together that's all I'm hoping for.

Unknown Speaker 39:55
Yeah. Oh, sorry.

Unknown Speaker 40:02
One possibility that comes to mind is the Google Cultural Institute. And I offer that up knowing full well all the problems around trying to work with Google. But if there was anybody on the planet who was likely to already have Hockney, Hopper and hammer skill, in some way, shape or form, it's probably them. And it's a walled garden. But it's a pretty big walled garden. And it has the internal capacity for members to be able to pull our orcs on your institutions, as long as the hostess has, has basically toggled that box on. So it could conceivably operate within GCI right now, given the way, it's currently set up, as long as the assets were already there. And I would be surprised if there and I'd be less than wise but still surprised if Hockney wasn't there in some way, shape, or form. And you know, they have gone out of their way to push the whole wiki, you can't download anything from the Google Cultural Institute, less you know how to make a screengrab, but whatever, they have at least taken steps enough to lower the risk threshold a bit. So worth exploring.

Unknown Speaker 41:17
Yeah, that's a really good suggestion, actually. How should one approach them because I mean, the sMk is part of the Google Cultural Institute with them several exhibitions there, we have part of our collection there, but I don't have a current contact there. It's been a while since we've done anything with them.

Unknown Speaker 41:41
And they tell what a good approach could be. Gives me I couldn't hear that. Think I might

Unknown Speaker 42:01
have a general contact for the Google Cultural Institute somewhere I know my meeting, recently left them but I feel like I was given a general set of contact information, I will dig through my emails and try to send that over to you. Thanks so

Unknown Speaker 42:19
much. Yeah, I can do the same. All of my emails are a couple of years out of date, but there was there was some generic contact info in there.

Unknown Speaker 42:30
I'll shoot my email here.

Unknown Speaker 42:45
Something that I was just thinking is for fair use, and fair dealing countries is going to be a lot of assessing where the gray areas are in and assessing whether you want to jump and test them. And I'm thinking that for a lot of countries with more specific exceptions and limitations, it's also a good opportunity to test how far they go and whether they allow us to, to bring forward other projects that would be interested to develop in the digital world. Because the the areas might be more black and white rather than gray. There's still some ways places but it's, but I think we're gonna have a lot more walls that we're gonna be facing, because there'll be more strict in there in the way they're written. But I think it would be really interesting to keep writing them down and now that there's especially a lot of copyright reform is going on in Europe it's also a good moment to eventually so it's a good test for our laws and see whether they're fit for the digital age and and to the way that we're we're like driving towards

Unknown Speaker 44:09
I don't know if anyone read Tim's comment, which is now you have to scroll up a bit but but yeah, I also think it's very interesting what the what the more like scientific publishing sector is doing and how how some people that were lobbying for opposite interests now they're coming together to maybe find a flexible solution that is for the benefit of all. So it's it's also very interesting to keep that in mind.

Unknown Speaker 44:48
Yeah, and if no one else has a question, I mean, like, please feel free to jump in whenever you want. We don't have a lot of time left. The idea was to finish this call in an hour sharp, so we're sort of reaching the end of the hour. But I guess that one last question. Sorry, that was already sort of a answer a bit. But maybe like, you can expand a little bit more on this. It's like how, how we can make sure that institutions are now having some tools to collect all the things that are happening now to archive for the future, which I think it's one of the biggest concerns too. There are a lot of like things going on. Now, a lot of media being sure, a lot of information being shared. And most of it is actually not under a CC license or under any permissible license. And is there any additional consideration that we want to sort of like, point people to in order to make sure that the information that is being doesn't create a problem?

Unknown Speaker 46:10
Do you mean shared by institutions or shared publicly by anybody?

Unknown Speaker 46:14
Sure, publicly by anybody, but also by institutions?

Unknown Speaker 46:22
Well, I think, I know that the National Library of Scotland did some really interesting art archiving of social media and other content after the before, during and after the Scottish referendum. So I think, you know, looking to what other institutions are doing around this, maybe there's some case studies out there. I know that, you know, there's there's been collections around some of the women's marches, signs that were left behind that sort of thing. So I'm sure that there's probably great resources out there about how to start looking at managing even basic to much more complex content. But in a way, some of that might not be as like, for collection purposes and archive purposes, might not be as risky as we think. Because when we're thinking about social media, the terms and conditions and, you know, they're really broad contracts that will apply to the the content that we submit, should you know, in especially other exceptions, that could depend on the jurisdiction, institutions would have a problem collecting some of this. I think also, something that's interesting to think about, is potentially user generated content. And as institutions start working more directly with users or inviting digital participation, thinking about what that will look like going forward, and how to design equitable practices around asking for a license, instead of asking a user to assign certain rights or waive them in any content that they generate, like a non exclusive license to the institution. There are a lot of like, dark areas on people's people, I mean, cultural institutions, websites, when you look at how they kind of manage user generated content, it's almost like I think the lawyers fully take over at that point. And you see the way that the language is constructed, you know, all perpetuity any digital media now and forever known you waive moral rights, the right to be associated with it, fight back against your lawyers during this, this phase, I think, is what I'm trying to say. And try to maybe potentially work with them for designing more equitable practices around some of this. I guess that's, that's my two cents would be more about kind of the user generated content and public engagement aspect of rights management and future proofing and thinking about appropriate practices.

Unknown Speaker 49:04
Yeah, a dirty secret about being a lawyer, I can say as a lawyer is that it's the safest way to practice law is to be as conservative as possible. And so that's, particularly when people are just, you know, being reactionary, it the safest thing is to be conservative. And so you do I agree, I echo the, the pushback, and I always appreciate it when I get it from my colleagues, as well. And then I guess, just to build on what Andrea said, you know, an easy, relatively simple solution for that is having people apply a CC license when they're uploading user generated content to a platform and that's a relatively common common solution for that problem. But yes, fight back against your lawyers element. That's the theme of the To the webinar

Unknown Speaker 50:10
I don't know if you want to make any last thoughts or last questions

Unknown Speaker 50:21
I just like to thank you for the initiative, I think it's brilliant that you offer this. Also just to get together and have a chance to ping pong concerns and ideas and get some valid information on how to go about these things. It's it's really, very, very thoughtful of you.

Unknown Speaker 50:52
I would also like to hear what other people do in the meantime. So I don't know if obviously, no one's talked about this. But if there's a potential for something like this to happen again, in a month or so, I think it'd be really interesting to even flip it, you know, to hear what people have been doing. Because that I think, would be the most interesting like we're at the outset, right now, we're just thinking kind of proactively and trying to anticipate the various things that may arise. But I'm sure that all of this will be completely different a month from now we'll have a lot more insight and examples of what people are doing on the ground. So I would love to hear how this what's what's happening in practice.

Unknown Speaker 51:33
Want to give that one a plus one, because right now, everything that I'm doing is just a bunch of Google Docs and video conferences, talking about what we should be doing starting next week. So a month or a month and a half. We see things starting to become real.

Unknown Speaker 51:51
Yeah, that sounds like that sounds like a great idea. I don't know. So since this was sort of organized between open glam and MCN, like there are a lot of different channels that you can join. But basically, yeah, I mean, you can either subscribe to them here. And I think Margaret has shared the link there to the Basecamp. To the copyright community, you can also show in the Creative Commons, Slack channel, which is Creative Commons thoughts., where most of the people that has participated in the call is also there's the European copyright community that I think Killian if I don't remember incorrectly shared the link to and of course, we're gonna be uploading this to the, to some YouTube channel, I guess it's gonna be the MCN YouTube channel. But basically, yes, we'll we'll keep in touch with everyone. And we'll announce on different social media channels, if we end up doing similar events like this. And, of course, I want to also give a shout out to, to the participant in these calls. For those of you who are thinking around going open access, you should definitely check her series on the open, glum medium that we have on how to go open glam, because that's like a great conversation starter and tool for for in these times of crisis. And I want to finish this of course by by thanking Ariana and Zara, and Andrea, for joining us today. Thank you very much. It has been very, very exceptional content and material and other food for thought, as someone said in the site site comments, and thanks, everyone to for joining today. Thank you, Sandy.

Unknown Speaker 54:01
Yeah, thanks, Ken. Thanks, everybody. Thanks,

Unknown Speaker 54:04

Unknown Speaker 54:06
See you. Thank you. This was great.