Ethical Responsibilities of Museums Recap

Review and discuss the key ideas that came out of the day with co-leads and presenters. More about how this session will be structured soon. Track:Ethical Responsibility


Unknown Speaker 11:52
Got it. Ah, hello everyone, We, watching as people file in, after some really interesting sessions on ethical responsibilities of museums, so welcome. We're not going to get into, into too much just until people have a chance to join us. But it's nice to see some faces I see. Juline is joining us who just finished speaking, in your session hi how you doing over there, dude. Yeah, yeah, there's that um, do you get the post presentation nerves or do you feel a little bit well

Unknown Speaker 12:34
I feel I feel much better after.

Unknown Speaker 12:39
Absolutely. Well that was a fantastic session so it's really nice to have you to join us for this conversation. If anyone else who has just presented I have I'm not seeing the full list if anyone who has presented this afternoon is also with us. I'm going to borrow a drill Louis's idea of throwing some ones in the chat if you want to just throw your name in the chat so we can see who else who's just presented might be here. That would be lovely. And Marty you have, you've been attending a few of these sessions which ones did you get to.

Unknown Speaker 13:12
I went to, they were it was accessibility. With Prime Access, and then. Cognitive Accessibility Caldecott for cognitive with Christina, and both were fantastic.

Unknown Speaker 13:28
That is awesome. Well, we've got at least a few of our presenters are here joining us it's excellent to have you here. I was in one of our sessions. So I will be able to speak to some of that. We're going to really have a few minutes thinking about ethics in a broad sense, for those who joined us, for the introduction, we spoke a little bit about ethics and museum ethics as some museum theorists have thought and we spoke a little bit about technology ethics, Marty is going to take us a little bit more thinking about corporate ethics and social responsibility, we're gonna spend a few minutes in that place. And then we'll we'll go into a broader discussion. For those who, who don't know me my name is Suzanne ason, I'm an assistant professor of museum studies at George Washington University. I am a white woman, I'm currently sitting on the floor with a gray but a background and a guitar, it looks like I'm artistic I am not. I have a black sweater I have long feather earrings and my hair is in an attempt to the quiff. Because my baby has been ripping so much of the front of my hair out that it there's nothing else I can do, and I'm coming to you from Baltimore, which is Piscataway land. The unseeded homelands of scattered Piscataway peoples and I think that's really important to acknowledge, Marty, why don't you introduce yourself. I'll also just before I flick to, we're going to ask people who have attended sessions today to think of two things I'm going to present you with a couple of challenges and we'll get to you. I'd like you to think about what questions occurred to you as you listen to your sessions, what are the things that you thought, Oh, here's the thing I'm still thinking about what are the questions. We're not racing to answers, we're going to hold questions in our head for this session. And then what are the themes that you notice from multiple sessions, how do they connect what are the what are the ideas, the big ideas you're noticing, and how did they start to make connections with your own practice. So I'm going to pop those in the chat. I'm going to pass over to Marty, but there's some things I wanted to challenge you as you're joining us to start thinking about that, that we might want to bring up and bring in everyone's voice in a little bit.

Unknown Speaker 15:51
Thanks. My name is Marty Spellerberg And I'm light skinned, male, dark hair. In Texas, broadcasting, Texas and I am sitting on a sofa.

Unknown Speaker 16:10
So I wanted to share just a couple of slides before we get into the discussion. Just a little bit of context I'm, I'm doing a business degree right now and I thought it might be interesting to share a little bit about how ethics are talked about in that context, it was certainly different than how I had experienced it before. So this is the primitive corporate social responsibility. I mean, to me it seems super basic right. But apparently this was a big deal when it was first introduced that companies at the beginning were focused and they felt that focusing only on the economics was was appropriate. And then this framework was developed, where you know you go beyond your economic to your legal responsibilities you go beyond your legal responsibilities to your ethical responsibilities and you go around your ethical responsibilities to your philanthropic responsibilities so I mean, to me, this seems pretty basic, but, you know, it was a it was a big step, when it was when it was proposed. A couple of just vocab words. So, to moral, moral intensity, and moral or ethical sensitivity. Moral intensity refers to a situation. So a situation could have moral intensity, where some situations are more front than others. The example I heard is, well, you know his people throwing different types of things at their car, and someone throws a cigarette butt out their car, you're probably not going to probably get maybe think of maybe they shouldn't be throwing their cigarette butts out the car. But if, if someone shoves a person out the car, man oh man that's terrible, that moral intensity of that situation is much higher. And then the moral or ethical sensitivity, that's within a person so different people have lower or higher sensitivities to moral situations or ethical situations. So those are the two one is the situational factor, and one is a characteristic of people of individuals. And then I want to show these, These principles in. In, we're often encouraged to look at situations through these different lenses. So one might take an ethical situation, and then analyze it using their, these are four principles, There's, there's more out there, there's, there's no, no, no shortage of them philosophers, continue to develop these ideas, but when confronted with a situation with moral intensity, and you want to analyze the ethics involved, you could look at it through different lenses, and by looking at it through different lenses you may come to different conclusions, and then at the end of the day, you have to reconcile those different conclusions but it's. These are tools to help you think and, and I would be curious if, if, to hear, you know we we all we attended various sessions today, and I would be interested to hear the arguments that were presented in the sessions. Filter analyze through through various lenses and and whether one would come out with different conclusions

Unknown Speaker 19:59
on it. Can I just get you to read out what those different lenses are so that for someone who might not have screen reading are

Unknown Speaker 20:09
absolutely, yeah. So utilitarianism. This principle says that the only moral obligation is to seek the greatest good, and the greatest number of people. Number two, individual rights. This principle says that everyone has the same set of natural rights, such as freedom of movement, physical security, freedom of speech and fair trial distributive justice. This principle says that the benefits and burdens of similar individuals should be the same. Otherwise they should be proportional ethic of care act ethic of care principle states that everyone has a moral obligation to help others within the relational relational sphere to grow and self actualize.

Unknown Speaker 20:55

Unknown Speaker 21:02
here we are. So we would like to have a, we'd like to discuss what what we, what we, what we saw today. As soon as Do you want to do you want to take it.

Unknown Speaker 21:17
Sure. So as I say, it would be lovely as we get into a we're going to talk about some of the things we observed but we'd really love to hear from participants in various sessions as well as people who are watching, listening, absorbing this help us unpack this together. And we've got some some things we'd love you to do is ask questions that emerged to you out of these sessions and themes that you've noticed big ideas that you've noticed and how they might connect with your own practice, we'll look at both the chat and also people can raise their hands so that we can actually bring you into the conversation. So I was in a session, thinking about risk and ethics for museums and then I attended the building accountability session. And for me with both of those sessions, I think a lot about. If we think about accountability for instance coming up to the question of who was making decisions for whom for the institution, and who decides levels of risks who decides levels of Public Engagement and thinking the building accountability session and I might pass to someone from that session in a moment. That was really thinking about Black Lives Matter statements and what institutions what public statements out which ones didn't. And then, what kind of follow up happened as a as a response to that and trying to keep institutions accountable, and it really makes me think when we think about ethical practice within this space, who is defining risks, who is defining the public's at stake that ethics writ large, are meant to help museums and other institutions maintain the public trust. But a couple of questions that I started to come up with was, Who are these publics which publics and how do we then decide or who is deciding, whose concerns get prioritized so for me that became a question that I was thinking about and I've been thinking a lot about in my own practice. Mati What did you hear.

Unknown Speaker 23:30
I went to the session on accessibility and Sina made some, some very strong points that I thought were interesting to to consider, he, he talks about accessibility, he talks about there's a method for accessibility but he didn't. He didn't like it as a method he thought it was bigger than that, it is more of an axiology. And that, to say that it was a method was, was he asserted that it was essential to all of society and I thought that really got to a moral imperative and ethical imperative that I would love to unpack unpack that a bit more. To really locate that imperative. He said, Cut, compliance with the law, thinking about the that that pyramid to compliance has nothing to do with inclusion, it barely does anything about accessibility so when we're thinking about, you know, there's the legal legal compliance but then up from that is, is, are the higher levels of the pyramid ethical compliance and I think he was his point there, sort of touched on that. And then in the in the cognitive disabilities discussion. The one of the phrases I picked up on was be the voice of the person who's not in the room. And again, you know, speaking to, who is who's in positions of leadership, and who's making these decisions.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
Yeah Marty these questions of who I think are really essential SEMA brings this in Sema, would you like to unmute yourself and join to make your point.

Unknown Speaker 25:10
Yes hello says hello Martin. I been hearing, I was hearing Oh, we were in a SIG one and it comes up and actually a lot of the ones I've listened in on that every point, somebody says a conversation like, we chose X because of y group so it's either and it's not the same group, sometimes I hear these choices, we had to make these choices because of the funder or because of the visitor or we had to make these choices because our staff couldn't or a step could, you know, I think it depends on what part of the organization you're in, I in, or where the money is coming from but it kept happening in each instance in a different conversations but it was interesting to me that often. I did not hear people say that this was an ethical choice. They said they knew, we're making a choice, and there was ethics in it but it's interesting that it did not come up often, as a lens that was ethical but it is really five people versus 100 people if there are numbers and there are ethics that are associated with it, and somebody else added to that conversation in the chat, but I have a hard time chatting and looking at people's faces so whoever that was I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker 26:22
Um, I saw that you have pointed to Aaron, Erin Richardson, did you want to talk a little bit more about this idea of the public trust and that being different from this idea that the public trusts museums.

Unknown Speaker 26:35
Sure, so I'll just use my go to. I have some go to sort of crass analogies that I like to use I have a long history of teaching graduate students and sometimes you just have to get the point across really quickly, in a way that it's not shocking but I don't know, you can. So here's the here's the public trust analogy like the public in terms of collections, right, we hold the collections in trust for the public, which is the same idea in my head, as you know, assets being held in trust for a minor, so if you're the, you know, if you are a kid and your assets are controlled by trustees if you want to buy a Ferrari when you turn 16 and the trustees are like no that's not an appropriate use of your assets and you hate them, that they're still acting. You know as trustees on your behalf. They're doing the best thing for you and your assets in the future, but the whether or not the public thinks we're telling the truth is a different matter. And I find it very interesting that we don't. I like what Seemandhra said that we don't talk about ethical choices. And I think if we did it would make some of our choices a lot easier to justify, and it would remove a lot of the fear, and risk around some of those choices so for example if we said, we are going to hire a diversity and inclusion officer, because it is the ethical thing to do right now, that would really clear it up for board members who don't think we need to do this. Are you going to have an ethical debate in your board meeting maybe, but it's I feel like it's less likely, if you just state what you're actually doing is coming from an ethical place

Unknown Speaker 28:37
to it. I feel like the the time in which we live and COVID shows that the ethical thing to do is to ask people to wear masks and ask for, for, you know, proof of vaccination or negative COVID as whatever. And I know there's MANY MANY institutions that don't want to even address that as ethical, because it impacts bottom line or it impacts, you know, so I feel like there's, we're living through this example of, even if it is ethical even if that is said out loud. It doesn't matter.

Unknown Speaker 29:17
I wish I could disagree

Unknown Speaker 29:21
with Julian, I think that we should, but I think it actually does not make it so that the argument stops. I mean I just today, had a conversation where I said, Do you want to use this word because it will start an argument. And it was something about. And I remember, like, being more just, more equitable about something that we're using, and space or something, and I was like you know equitable is a real trigger word for some people. Are you ready, like on I will go to any fight my staff wants but if you're not ready I'm not doing it with you. And, and I think ethical is another thing, I often say is this the ethical choice for us internally but I don't say it externally, because I'm not ready to start some of those fights. I have a lot of them to do.

Unknown Speaker 30:09
Sema, it's interesting hearing you say this. One of the things so I teach a course on museum ethics and values, and I asked my students, so it's, it's exclusively almost exclusively focused on contemporary practice and emergent issues so we look almost exclusively or what are the things coming out of the field today and how do we think about them and contextualize them. And one of the biggest things that I asked my students to do and that is not to race to the answer that feels comfortable as you know we should do this, but to sit with the uncertainty of, well, why isn't this happening, because I think when we do think about these ethical challenges and when we think about technology ethics. Very often it's so easy to say well we should do blank, but there's all of these reasons, including stakeholder pressures from funders including board level pressures that I think Juline is getting to, including the fact that we're trying to make sense of multiple publics and their needs and that they're not all the same need that sometimes they're in direct conflict that coming to the ethical answer is not a straightforward thing, and that even thinking Julian you mentioned like masking. To me, That's an obvious answer, but if you're wondering well, does our institution survive if we you know, if we risk whether people will come and then then becomes a reputational risk and what happens then. Are we acting in the public trust if it turns out people lose faith in the institution in one way, there's multiple things that we're having to balance there. And so, how we navigate those frameworks, I think is actually at the heart of a lot of this discussion, muddy, how do you in business school because I think business school, likely comes to this from a different framework, then I think some aspects of museums. How would you be encouraged to make those decisions are you. Is there a sense that one framework is better what what is the process that that you're encouraged to take.

Unknown Speaker 32:29
I will say that there's an ethics, three component of each of each of the topics that we're studying. They all come back to those, those, those, those four principles that I presented I've seen that that list of principals several times. In this process, and it's just to do the analysis to sit down and do it, you know to look to say, you know, and and and the idea that you're going to come out of each of those analysis, you might come out in a different way, and then it's up to you as then, having done that analysis, considered it, then you make a decision, you know, but you yet, at the end of the day you probably do have to wreck, you have to reconcile, because they're not all gonna come out the same way, through one form or the last analysis something may be ethical. That's for another form, it may not. So, but, and that's and then, but, but I think just having those conversations and and carving out the time to say we are going to, we are going to do an ethical analysis here that is part of our process is to do this analysis and you could you could you could assign different people that take different positions have a little debate, a little debate session about it and. But I also thought it was interesting, like with the corporate responsibilities I I'd never encountered that in museums before and I wondered if it was because museums are always located the entire renovation is located up in the philanthropy thing, and do they do even think ourselves, as you know we could we might critique. A companies out there and be like oh what a ethical or an unethical company but I think we just take it for granted because we're doing things in the public trust, that we are behaving ethically but, of course, if we were doing that, if I was doing that I shouldn't anymore, you know.

Unknown Speaker 34:22
Yeah, I'll tell you if you asked my students who are presented with 14 weeks of museums dealing like because I bring them the problems of museums, it's a very depressing course and I'm really apologetic to my students, because actually, you know, if we look at what happens in the field. There are so MANY cases that that lead to uncertainty, and in a lot of ways, you know, if we think about the code of ethics, the codes of ethics that we live by. At the moment there's not really any that exist with technology, and that can be helpful and not helpful depending on what that leads us to. But, but it's so interesting, sort of, I think potentially there is an assumption that because museums are understood to be or thought to be. There's MANY good people doing MANY thoughtful things and trying to do really good things in this field whether that does bring this assumption of do we, you know, do we naturally feel like drawn to ethical approaches and I'm not sure that we could argue that something I'd love to say, I want someone talking about museums, uplifting ethical values, I think, Francis. Do you want to speak to that because I think that that's a really interesting question and I love SEMA also for you to unpack this idea of ethics of the past in a second but Francis Can you speak first.

Unknown Speaker 35:50
I just second I have my camera pointing at the ceiling. Hi. Um,

Unknown Speaker 36:06
yeah my comment was just a feeling

Unknown Speaker 36:09
that sort of ignoring the ethical questions is business as usual. So the whole reason we are in a situation where we have to decolonize the reason that we have to face issues around collecting only white European artwork in major art museums and, you know, all the other issues that we're facing now are the way museums have worked since they were started. And so I think that, you know, it's it's easy for a lot of senior management, even in the face of all of the questions that are coming out to just fall back on business as usual at the highest levels, to maybe, you know, sort of talk the talk but not walk the walk about making the kinds of changes that I know and, certainly, in MANY cases the staff want to see, but it would involve losing power it would involve losing collections. Change changing in ways that I think a lot of museums senior leadership are not yet ready to change so I think it is. It is business as usual. Thinking.

Unknown Speaker 37:24
Yeah, it's interesting, Max, I think this is a really good question Max just throw it in the chat, I wonder if people are thinking of ethics in board recruitment. A couple of things that I think about a lot and I'm going to throw to Gretchen in a second because there's some interesting conversation points changes made as well. Something I talked about a lot with my students is this this gap between board concerns and staff concerns I saw an observation, I can't remember who, unfortunately, a couple of years ago on Twitter from someone saying that so often the discourse that happens in the field, that there may be a shift that happens within the field and within the sector that then is not continued sort of perpetuated at a board level because there is a strategic, there's a gap and so the strategic direction of the institution gets set by the board at least in the US, and that the people on the ground who are doing a lot of the work, they might have very different understandings because this is where discourse develops this is where our understandings of ethical practice develops in a lot of cases, is through these kinds of conversations, and these spaces are happening quite distinct from the conversations happening at the board level and that might be why we have some of this disconnect, Gretchen, you have a point, and I'm going to go do you want to speak to that yourself.

Unknown Speaker 39:02
Gretchen might not not be here. So same I am gonna throw them back to you and talking about ethical issues related to making change.

Unknown Speaker 39:11
I actually I am I was just muted, sorry, fantastic. Right. So, in looking at both the kind of the the top down, or the, the structure that was shown where philanthropy was at the top and then there were, ethical and, and, at the bottom, economic criteria or looking at the four principles. Ethical kind of frameworks. Um, I still think, given today's issues that there are these kind of, you know, male, white, you know, kind of cysts constructs that that are lurking behind these that we don't call out, because they seem, they're just normal, but I think people who are questioning, a lot of these, you know how museums operate in general are thinking about issues of gender and race and, and, and other, other ways in which the field just does not reflect who the public's the various publics are so what I'm wondering says for example in your class do you talk about, you know this word intersectionality, you know, is often kind of marked as being, you know, kind of a jargon but it's, it is so relevant in terms of the interconnection of all of these various issues so I'm wondering if you get into that in looking at these various principles, and I'm wondering what other people think about these kind of normative constructs that I feel are are present but unnamed.

Unknown Speaker 41:06
Yeah, I mean we absolutely talk about those ideas because the whole purpose is trying to unpack the complexities of the field for us of trying to, for us it's trying to get to the paradoxes at stake because I think that if we try and understand why change isn't happening it's to try and understand the leaves of pressure that are happening in different spaces so it's thinking about funding and money and the implications that that has but it's also thinking about board makeup and it's thinking about staff makeup it's thinking about how institutions deal with trauma, and who might be affected in those conversations and that's, that's what we try and do is sit with this uncertainty but also use that time pack, how and why certain practice happens. It's hugely complex and I think that that's, that's one of these, the questions when we think about ethics is if there's an assumption or even an idea that ethics is straightforward. I think that we actually almost. It makes it harder, harder in some ways because then you say, Oh, this should change but without the going on, why isn't it changing and trying to understand how those levers of power work and where, where these things come up against one another. In a moment I'm going to throw to Mati to sort of wrap us up and talk about some next steps and some through lines we've seen from last year, but something I want to know from anyone who's attending is whether your institution has mechanisms for identifying ethical questions and ethical issues, and if so what the processes are that you have established as an institution, you know I've long wondered why grant makers for instance don't require a section on the ethical, the ethical issues at stake when you're applying for a grant I think if that was done, we'd probably have different discussions in the field if there was money tied to how you're dealing with and addressing ethical issues at an institutional level, but I'm not aware of any grant, like funding bodies that are doing that. I'd love to know if anyone does, but I'd also love to know what what internal mechanisms you have to thinking about and reflecting internally on ethical questions. Does anyone have anything established within their institution, also have an infant crying, if you hear that, I apologize.

Unknown Speaker 43:50
I would love to see that but I don't know where it exists I guess one thing that is that this conversation I'm going to digress a little bit, that I'm hearing from both uses, and Aaron as instance as individuals who are in academia, teaching about museums, the ideal that I think all of us here working in museums like hell, we'd love that. That'd be great. Like, of course we should have that, but like, I, I have to solve the problem of, you know, so and so's membership isn't updated in the system so that they can register for the program that they want. I guess maybe today is just a bad day, but it feels like, so much is in between us and, and that ideal that it just makes me a little bit sad and bitter to even think that's my, that's my reality for today everybody I need to raise my window and get my rainbow spinning back in the room.

Unknown Speaker 44:57
Max, you just said you feel like you're teaching to the ideal all the time, Julian I will say, my, my optimism and my joy, actually comes from, from teaching, because when I in the classroom. I feel like the students that I'm seeing the emerging professionals that I'm seeing coming through, are thinking that and grounded in realistic as much as they can be when you're still emerging in it, understandings of practice and idealistic and figuring out a space in there, Max, do you want to speak about teaching to the ideal.

Unknown Speaker 45:33
Oh, sure. I mean, like, one of the courses that I teach is learning in museums, right. And so talking about the, the, the, the importance of how to plan for educational experiences and who you're serving and like being equitable to your audiences and trying to figure out like how not to like kind of start the class on like we've been crapping on people forever. So, like, this is what you have to fight against to get to the point where you can just reach people, right, and invite them into your experience. You know and so I know we talked about like these plans and these great things and these wonderful like constructs and frameworks for learning that people can do but then when they're going to go out to these museums, and they're not going to have that right. Like, they're not gonna, they're, they'll have these things in their heads about like well this is a great thing that we do and they're gonna go and they're gonna they're gonna fight for those things great and I keep telling you that this is not the ideal and you I mean, this is this is the ideal and you need to fight for what is the ideal out there because you're gonna go out there and it's not gonna be like that, you know so that that's what I mean by that is that that I'm kind of acutely aware of like the things that we're talking about tend to be so you know you're trying to train people to go out and do the best work right but like at the same time it's like I keep trying to fight against that sort of like false sense of, like, like, I like I'm telling you how it is, rather than how I think it should be. That makes sense.

Unknown Speaker 47:09
Yeah, it absolutely makes sense and I. GRI, as an aside, really, really great, um, credenza or whatever it is behind you, that's off topic for anyone who can't see it, It's beautiful and geometric and it's it's delicious. I'm gonna I'm gonna step back because I think this is really fantastic compensation but I also want to go back to money because we need to think about how we continue this conversation this space because what we've seen over the last couple of years is this through line of people having conversations around ethics at MTN that come up once a year at a conference and we don't have mechanisms for extending that conversation. So Marty Can I throw that to you.

Unknown Speaker 47:55
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, to just to talk about the, the through line for me. And probably some of you were in one prior but it was out in Denver, we had a roundtable. Two years ago we had a roundtable was called nightmare machines, it was a it was one of the off sites, And it was about tech ethics museum tech ethics. There's an essay about that came out of that it's in the on the Slack I can turn that around. And then last year, you know, we had a roundtable at last year's conference, I pulled some of our notes from that and, and I won't do them justice. Some of the themes but you know it's on the, it's it's our, it's in the archive right in the Indian archive, but some of the themes from last year's this discussion last year we talked about her persuasive design, which is an area of design practice that endeavors to influence human behavior through through design choices. We talked about the digital divide. We talked about data privacy. We talked about how we choose vendors are we making responsible choices when we, when we choose our hosting or ticketing systems. We talked about participation in social media, ethical implications of engaging on Facebook, forcing the adoption of those platforms upon our public's impact on staff. I have a note here that was Nick eels part he had an amazing section of that discussion. I'll do it. I won't do it justice but we talked about surveillance allowing platforms to sell their ability to, to, to influence our thinking, and he, he suggested an action of demanding people over profit, but that's just to say so, this conversation that we had today is in this is in this thread, and last year we definitely talked about it, how do we keep this from being a once a year thing, and then this year we talked about it, how do we keep this from being a once a year thing. So, in the last few minutes, maybe we can have a little bit of a conversation about what is this ethical conversation at AMC and look like, you know, in the 12 months between now and next and next x MC and I'm gonna drop a link into the chat, which is just a simple Google form asking for people's email addresses, and that's if anybody wants to continue this conversation in that format, and just so that we can be in touch with people. You feel free to fill out that form, it's just sort of an extra, but I'm going to go and get that, then

Unknown Speaker 50:37
I'm gonna say, Aaron. Aaron just said, Does AMC and have an ethics committee Oh SIG know if you fill out the form, maybe we can start one you amazingly led us to the place we wanted to go or at least I wanted to go so easily paid it. Because actually it is this question of how do we start coming up with what might be a code of ethics, what might be just a continued space for these conversations where people can actually identify and talk through specific issues with others who are thinking about them deeply, and having an ongoing space for that Koven had done some great work Koven J. Smith with others around the musetech charter, over the last few years the musetech charter was thinking about ways that we can approach the work that was thinking within an ethical framework as much as anything but I'd like to, there is interest and there's been interest for a few years it's just how we connect these ideas and these people, that's kind of the challenge, we'd like to leave for everyone as well. Max is putting in a plug for meeting up in speed networking at 4pm which sounds great. Does anyone have final thoughts, we've got about five minutes, I want us to honor people's time and end on time. Does anyone have final thoughts before we wrap up, about any of the sessions that they saw or about this continued conversation.

Unknown Speaker 52:23
I just want to reiterate a thing I put in the chat which is congratulations to all your smart people for being willing to talk about ethics, openly in a conference setting doesn't happen in other conferences so everybody gets should pat themselves on the back,

Unknown Speaker 52:38
I think, MC n as an organization as a community has been doing a really good job over the last few years of bringing missing. So, we you know Marty and I were lucky enough to help participate with this session but you know there's so MANY people who've been doing this work for years that I think we need to acknowledge, because I think MC n, as a community is focused on thinking of the ethical ramifications of the work that happens here. So, yeah, it's lovely to be part of a group that are thinking about that and thinking about it so actively, so I'm going to say thank you to everyone who has come, all of our presenters to today's sessions. Everyone who's thinking about this and then there are other sessions throughout the program that are also thinking about the ethical aspects of their work, they just might have fit into a different framing better or might have fit into multiple framings. And I think for all of us as we think about how we get to ethical deliberation within our own work part of it is thinking about who you can draw upon for these ethical conversations as well that it won't just happen within your institution. Although hopefully it is happening there in some way but how we support one another through these conversations because that's where we'll develop a language, a set of ideas and and really test out different different outcomes. I think I'm done, Marty. What about you, any, any final thoughts.

Unknown Speaker 54:13
No, I better yet Thanks Thanks Tom. I you know, I'm really glad I mean it was so easy with what gets submitted him Stan, to, to have a day about ethics that was really, really wonderful, I think, really, you know, again thank you to all the presenters and, and everyone who came before, and everyone who will come after.

Unknown Speaker 54:35
Yes, I can't wait. When I ask someone in this room to step up to, to lead this conversation next year because it should be a conversation that continues in different in whatever shape so yes continue to do this work and think about it and think how you can connect with us or how we can support you and how we can support each other. This is how we as a community will continue to develop as well. Thanks everyone.