The Hybrid Museum (Session 1 of 2)

What will the hybrid of the museums look like, after Covid and the current digital transformation? Will the audience of visual art, follow that consumer path of the music industry, where art is explored digitally, virtually first and then “live” at the museum? What will digital first mean for curators? Have the borders of our audience shifted from geographical borders to time zones? Track:Europe


Unknown Speaker 15:21
Great. Hello everyone. Welcome to MCN, another session for the exam 2021 My name is Giles. We are at the first of two sessions today the both on the notion and around expand hybrid museums. This is panel one of two and panel two of two will start 15 minutes after this one. This session is checked co chaired by myself Giles Pooley, and Torill Haugen from the Sutherlands Kunstmuseum in Norway. And we'll just let a few people, come on in, and then we'll get started. To get us going. We thought it'd be nice to find out where you all are today. So please let us know in the chat where you guys are all dialing in, zooming in, from. I'm currently this is an very international talk today. I'm currently in Barcelona. We've got people in New York, we've got people in Norway, we've got people in Copenhagen on our panel so it's a, it's an international one and we'd love to know where you guys are just let us know, and then we'll get started in just a second. Okay, so let's get going. Right. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, Wherever you are, I always think that's a nice one. Please do that as I said please let us know where you're joining us from. We'll come back to see who where you are later on. We're very glad to have you with us. As I've said already, this is the first of two sessions. This session is going to be about 45 minutes long, but it's gonna be 45 minutes long, because we've got a heart out. I'll do introductions in a second. But with this session is an open discussion around the notion of what is a hybrid museum or a hybrid museum experience. And at the end of the open discussion, there will be a q&a so you will get a chance to feed some questions to the panelists. And what else and then, yes, and then following immediately after this is a second session in this series in which my co chair Torill Haugen from the Sunderland's Museum in Norway will be doing a deep dive into SK MMU, a virtual experience and a virtual digital twin of their museum, but she will be joined on that call by other participants in the in the project looming art, and genetic committee are trying to get through this quite quickly, because we've got quite a lot to discuss and I'm just very conscious this only 45 minutes so apologies if I'm going too fast for people. And actually that is a good point I will slow down a bit, right. So, today we as I said, we're talking about. So first of all, my name is Giles Pooley, I am a digital producer and former Director of Design for Antenor International. But for the last four years, I've been working as a freelancer and have set up a collective called lucid lab. We are a digital collective of strategic creatives and we help with delivering digital transformation and immersive experiences. So that's me, I am middle aged mixed race, gay. My pronouns are he, him on I'm in Barcelona and what you can see behind me if it's still working because it can't see it on Zoom is an image of a virtual gallery that we've created in which we are hosting

Unknown Speaker 19:03
ongoing calendar of rotating art exhibitions by digital artists. And so now into the talk, we are looking at hybrid museums and museum experiences and I found this definition, earlier on in one of the conference talks, and they refer to hybrid museums as museum programs, content, or other experiences designed to engage audiences both on site and online synchronously and asynchronously or asynchronously. I think that's a great definition, but I think we in our talk today are potentially going to open that up. And I think you'll see why when we get into the examples that some of our guest speakers are sharing with us and talking about guest speakers joining today. We have a wonderful panel of talkers. First of all we've got Sophie Anderson, who as a creative director Sophie develops digital content and strategy and she also leads interdisciplinary teams at helps museums new reach new audiences for the Metropolitan Museum. She currently heads up the digital content and editorial teams, she's currently working on bringing art and new perspectives to audiences wherever they are. We then have Nina Colosi, who is the founder and creative director of the streaming Museum, a program of the arts and world affairs for the public. Also, we are joined by merit sandhoff Sander Hoff, the curator and senior advisor of the museum practice at sMk, the National Gallery of Denmark, where she is responsible for the museum's open access policy that aims to foster active reuse of the digitized collections. And last but definitely not least, and I'm so worried I'm going to say this name wrong, Michelle, shouldn't I did get that wrong, the head of Digital Collections and Services at the Slovak National Gallery. Michelle has been at the Slovak National Gallery for more than a decade where he took an active role in transitioning the gallery, into the original digital realm from cataloging through to digitization. He's also a member of lab dot SMG, the r&d team at the Slovak National Gallery, where he's currently working on concepts for digital and immersive experiences. My co chair today is Torill Haugen, who is also digital advisor and curator for the Kunstmuseum and Kristen stand, Norway, and the new community to beef currently being renovated and to be opened in 2020 for the students shortlands consola and new space. So what I'd like to do now is I'm gonna. We also have, we have Nina with us, Nina. Did I not say Nina.

Unknown Speaker 21:54
Yeah, you did. Of course you did.

Unknown Speaker 22:02
Okay, I would have I would have put it out now. We, I'd like to open this up and I'm going to do this alphabetically so a apologies to Sophie because she comes with the surname Anderson, but I'm gonna ask each one of our wonderful guests to give us a quick two minutes to two to three minute explanation on what they think, When, when they think of the term hybrid museum experience, including some of the examples that they've kindly shared so Sophie, over to you and um then the slides.

Unknown Speaker 22:41
Thanks Giles. Thanks for inviting me to be part of this discussion and it's great to be here with these co panelists and to all of you out there virtually I wish we could actually see each other. But so as Giles very kindly introduced I'm heading up the digital content editorial team at the Met. And when Giles asked me to think about this question about being hybrid I thought well, we've always really been hybrid right thinking about digital and physical experiences tracking from the physical on site, tracking to from the digital to the on site, but I think everyone now is really much more aware of what's possible and thinking about the digital as not just a simulation of our on site experiences really thinking about it as the experience and not comparing our value of a digital experience to the physical, but I think more pointedly we should be asking kind of what's the role of art museums and digital as part of that. I'm not just thinking about, you know, hybrid, as either physical or digital but really about thinking about outside the museum walls. Digital helps us to do that but there are so MANY ways in which we should be thinking about hybrid and really connecting, as Charles was saying, where people are. I also think it's about how we present history or art or cultural heritage, using all of the assets that we spent too much time counting online whether it's a single artwork or a video using the story the context, thinking about the relevance, and for our audiences to for the for the content, but also in ways that they can co create with the content. So, you know, thinking beyond just access. We have so much stuff online, we have so much to wade through online as consumers, and thinking about kind of changing that dichotomy into more of a participatory experience and less about us as museums of authority, but more about us as conveners of meaning. So I, I shared some quick examples I want to go quickly just because we've got a lot to get through. I share intimate stories which is really on the face of it, a video series but essentially it was supposed to be kind of a nice to have during our 1/50 anniversary and of course, because the pandemic so much of what was planned to be physical didn't happen. And so this series really became very, very big component of our 1/50 and through what we really learned that we can be a less austere museum for our audiences through this kind of online experience maybe even more so than if they had come to some of the on site celebrations, so these are first person lived experience stories is about the impact of the Met and art, specifically. Moving on to my next example, we pivoted a lot in our audio program during the pandemic really thinking about how to reach people who potentially weren't coming to the museum but also reaching people who were coming to museum. So we went from, you know, traditional audioguide structures of individual stops per artwork to more of a hybrid podcast approach where we really were telling more chapter stories that people could listen to while they were on site, or they could listen to from home so again just kind of innovating within some of our kind of usual practices. But moving on I think one of the projects we got most excited about was our Animal Crossing activation. So this was taking our, our Open Access program and our API and integrating it with Animal Crossing, which is a video game platform very popular. And what we saw there was just a huge interest in people being able to integrate art into their own worlds right and I think we've, MANY of us played around with virtual environments for art, this is really about art in people's own virtual environments rather than coming to one that we've created. And what got us so excited was just seeing that, you know so MANY people were activating these artworks, and you know, particularly drawing a huge audience from Japan, which was, you know, very interesting to us. We were also engaged with AR activations that we're creating virtual worlds are unframed series I don't have an image of it here was a partnership with horizon where we created 13 imaginary rooms of our own, where we invited people to come through in just a month. That was super exciting from just kind of a technology perspective and the stories that we were able to tell there, but this is really kind of I think that long tail of open access and really being able to bring it to people where they are. My next example is more in the education sector so we've partnered with Microsoft on their Flipgrid environment, and they, we have now about 120 Plus topics within Flipgrid where kids can use our content to make their own videos and teachers can use it to create prompts for their lesson plans. So again I think really thinking about being outside of our own network experience of the, of the Mets channels and reaching people on their own. And then my last example is the Louisiana channel which is back to my Danish roots, which I think is just really still one of the forerunners of thinking outside of the box about what museums can be the Louisiana channel is a video channel that's been set up by the Louisiana museum but it's not their museum website and then the videos that are created are long form videos that are really about artists. Some connected to their collection and others just artists they think are important and interesting. And their main philosophy is not to drive people to their website, but to get it distributed out into the world onto others. Anyway, So, just a bit of a thought piece at the end.

Unknown Speaker 28:15
Thank you, Sophie that's absolutely great, and we'll come back to. Thank you. And then over to the lovely Nina Colosi.

Unknown Speaker 28:23
Thank you. You're welcome. So well. Yeah, the question about Hi, what is a hybrid museum to me. A hybrid Museum, along with its programming within its walls and on its website, brings its collection out into the public spaces to reach the general public and those who may never go to a museum. And then the museum tells stories that show how the art of all ages relates to people's lives and to the the world today and in the future. So, this is an image of a launch of our program Nordic outbreak that went to seven continents and this is Bjork, playing throughout time square for one month. Yes, and you can go on to the next. And so, we've brought art, to, you know, major cities, or to an audience of one or, or two or three and Antarctica. And then other projects that have been throughout the world. We've been on seven continents. This is more Reese Bennigan's real time data or work that takes that shows what's going on in the world, pulling from about 3000 databases on news. And so it's true takes the pulse of the emotions of the world. Then after that slide.

Unknown Speaker 30:10
Apologies my slides are going mental.

Unknown Speaker 30:15
Just showing other locations around the world where we have brought exhibitions, you know, we may take one artwork and send it to seven continents, or a collection of artwork and send it. So this is happens to be a virtual reality work. Oh yes that okay there Yes, virtual reality work by Lundell and Scytl Swedish duo, and they connect the world through these artworks in fact one of them resides on the stream Museum website so that you can connect with people around the world that you will never meet, but you were connected in real time with them to go through this experience that they have set up. So is there I think that's the last slide in this. Yeah, well those are just other locations around the world from Hong Kong to Piazza Duomo in Milan, Bucharest, Romania, Melbourne, Australia, in New York City. Just a smidge. Or yeah,

Unknown Speaker 31:24
ologies because the slide moved very quickly in the first one you didn't get a chance to introduce yourself so please just let us know who you are and what you're representing, because you've taught to this wonderful projects but.

Unknown Speaker 31:35
Oh, okay. You mean, I'm the founder director of streaming Museum, which is a program that brings our two public spaces cultural centers, and its website, and I'm an American woman of Italian descent with medium length dark hair and wearing a black blouse and a necklace from India, and I live in the Financial District of New York City, between the Smithsonian Museum of the American Indian and Wall Street.

Unknown Speaker 32:08
Thank you, apologies for making you do that later on but I'm going to try and find out what's happening now I think I have it under control. Thank you, Nina, come back to this next makefile. Go now with something moving again. Oh no, That's the next one we could have one. There we go. Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 32:28
Thank you so thank you and Mario for invitation to emcee and it's actually my first time here so glad to be able to discuss these issues with you. And, as you said, I'm working in the Slovak National Gallery, based in Bratislava. Central Europe, and I will be giving you a few examples of what we do with my colleagues in the gallery. And I have examples which illustrate the take on the hybrid museums of we go further in the slides. I'll begin by talking about the online collections which MANY of you probably also worked with in museums and that is not to say that that's some hybrid approach because it's most of the time quiet or not quite engaging way of working with the users line, but it's a good base to work with, and few few years ago, we've been asked by the director of our gallery to develop a digital platform on the next slide, which, which will be, which will accompany exhibition about the history during the Second World War about art and propaganda in Slovakia, which was a dark time when the state was cooperating with Nazi Germany, and to give enough insight to the visitors of the of the gallery, we created a lot one form storytelling platform on the next slide, which gave the visitors a necessary historical layer using multimedia and artworks in the exhibition. And what happened was that this this hybrid approach worked really well because the visitors were driven to the exhibition which are also, by, by the site, and the other way around the visits of the gallery itself are driving the visits of the, of the website so we were quite encouraged to to work in this direction so. And the next slide, we were tasked not to create a digital platform or addition to an exhibition but the digital product itself without an exhibition. It was the first time we could do something that wasn't based on an exhibition but it was a service or product itself, which proved to be quite challenging. It was about the historical events of 98 Nine, when when the communist state of Czechoslovakia was falling by though it was dismantled and we were creating this so say digital pinboards where we were illustrating the historical event by, again, photographs, posters and so on. But as we wanted to base it still on the on the on the platform of, of the physical or the actual museum the gallery, okay today panel board which you can see on the right side which was using some of the items, and the website itself on a touch screen, so there will be still some level of interaction at the physical level, and if you go to the next slide we also created a gallery guerrilla campaign with banners that were following the aesthetics of the banners that were hanging all over the city at the time of 1999 to drive the attention to the digital level, and all these experiences. We'll try to put together in in the new building which is shown on the next slide, which is to be opened in two years, and it's an reconstruction of a late modernist building, and there will be new, new permanent exhibitions and we will be working on interactive and immersive concepts for for these using experience we have from the storage storytelling platform and also the online collections so just last week we've been on the site to see and to imagine how could we put this additional layer on top of it and I'm glad I'll be able to discuss this with you because I don't have definitive answers yet.

Unknown Speaker 37:10
Well, you're always welcome and we can we can try to help in any way we can make. And, and our final guest last and not binding, by no means these minute.

Unknown Speaker 37:22
Yeah, hello everybody it's, it's really great to be at the MC and again, I'll be it i really really miss the vibrant community gatherings at the live conferences but I hope that comes back. But in the meantime, thanks for organizing this wonderful virtual coming together of us, and keeping, keeping the conversation alive. I'm sitting in home the back north of Copenhagen, actually, the town of the Louisiana museum that Sophia referred to. So, it's close to the water I swim in the sea every morning. I'm a white woman, I'm 43. I'm a mother of two, and very happy to be here today with you all. Um, when we were asked to um, to reflect on what this term the hybrid museum means to us. I thought that the hybrid museum to me is where digital technologies enable progress in museum practice. It's something we can use to move forward. And the first thing I thought of as an example of that is a really really amazing piece of writing by Claire Bishop and Nicky Columbus called New MoMA, published in January 2020 in n plus one. You should all go read it, it's a really fantastic eye opener. The article is a spec it's a speculative review of what the authors termed the new MoMA, a complete rethinking of the curatorial and educational and organizational structure of the most renowned Museum of Modern Art in the world, the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And what is amazing about this piece of writing is that the thought experiment of rethinking what the Museum of Modern Art is and does is completely enabled by the fact that the collection of MoMA, is available online, and that a lot of information that backs up the author's vision of how this collection and representation of the History of Modern Art, how that could be changed. That, that thought experiment is made possible by access to the Internet access to data access to online collections, the thought experiment here if you haven't read it, some of you, is to really embrace the insights that we have gotten over the past decades, about the inequality in art history and the biases in the way that we put together collections and represent what is collected. And what was so amazing to me in this thought experiment. Is that what what we always know as museum curators, is that what we put on display is just a fraction of what we have in our collections, right. So I sMk where I work, we have a quarter of a million works and we have space for 2000 works on our walls in our galleries. So that's less than 1% and new MoMA is a thought experiment of very virtually rehanging the collection with works that are in the collection. Remarkably, but that are not on display now, and not in the same constellations. So the whole foundation for a new moment is there, and the access to this information for everyone to see, is what spurs, the new thinking, and I really love the activism of this piece because by describing it as if it happened already, it's activating a kind of, hey, we could do this, this is possible. And it's actually been the driver, always for the way we work with,

Unknown Speaker 42:12
you know, being a hybrid Museum at sMk. The notion that if we digitized and put all of this content out there for everyone to see art history is going to be rewritten because people will know and see and be able to make their own connections. And this is what new MoMA does. And, and I think that's, that's just brilliant, a brilliant example of what we hope to see happening as a hybrid Museum.

Unknown Speaker 42:47
Thank you, Maria, I think it's, you know, the power of the article is, as you said, The it's an imagining of something that could be, but it's so beautifully done. It really feels like it's actually an existing exhibition you want to go and visit and it's a very very different view on what a hybrid museum piece could be, we'd have just had a really good run through and four very different perspectives on what a hybrid experience or a hybrid museum could be so I've got a couple of questions that I want to put to our panelists, and anyone can jump in and answer them. My first one is, how do the various strategies for you guys both within institutions and working on within institutions that actually have no physical boundaries, how do these adoptions of these new sort of hybrid modes of thinking. Move, move the conversation forward around the collections that they have, that are that any one of you can jump in.

Unknown Speaker 43:55
I mean I can jump in, you know, as a museum that has, you know, a huge collection and as Nyjah says, you know, has really worked to get a huge amount online and made it accessible through the open open access program. I would say that, adopting that sort of hybrid mentality by going to open access and by developing an API to get the content out there, has really meant that we continue to have very robust conversations about what kind of data should be out in the world about the collection. We look at other datasets and think about what our should look like in a way that I sort of, I don't think would have happened if the Open Access kind of idea hadn't been, you know, put out there and fought, you know that the institution fought so hard to get out there. And so I think that really there's sort of some new pathways that open up because of that, you know, new pathways into our collection that our partners using our API are asking us to, you know, asking us questions that we wouldn't you know we do a lot of collaborations with universities like the Pratt, and you know the student bodies they're ask us, and push us in terms of how we're going to put our data out in the kind of stories that we, that we would be telling, and they have very different stories to tell then than the Museum does and I think that's, that's part of the opportunity and I think that I this example really does it in the hypothetical, but I think we're already seeing that those conversations lead to questions and and points of discovery within our own organization. So I think from that perspective, it's really about opening up new pathways to thinking about the collection and decentralizing authority, right, like we may have the expertise on the particular work of art, but we are part of a conversation with others about its meaning.

Unknown Speaker 45:53
Absolutely, weigh in on that, please. I was just thinking one of the conversations that keeps coming up. When we work with our open data and just like at the Met. We, we put our collection in the public domain. and, and we use also one. Another thing about the hybrid Museum is that we also use hybrid intelligence to, to, to reach a place where people can actually search our data. It takes a lot to actually make the data accessible to others than experts, for us we needed to use machine learning to add keywords to our collection because we never had the resources to do that that entails. Lots of biases that we can get them discuss. But what I wanted to say is that the interesting challenge as a museum in a hybrid environment is that once you open up your data, you also open up all the flaws and errors in your data, which is, you know, it makes you, your handshake, a little, as you know, trained, academics, that are used to being in perfect control of what you publish and put into the world, but the conversations and the feedback and the learnings from the public that entails is incredibly valuable in terms of being a hybrid Museum,

Unknown Speaker 47:42
I think just the right feedback. Just feed on that thought then, because obviously we're in a stage now where everything is posted at all, we've recorded we're all digital. Now, the transformation that we've all undergone over the last 18 months has been really intense and we're now in a world where are we now in a world where hybrid becomes a genuine part of the strategy and has to become part of the strategy for museums, or is it just something that we think will potentially sway back to a more traditional approach to, you know, visitor engagement. Once people start arriving at the you know brick and mortar institutions, again, what are your feelings on though.

Unknown Speaker 48:27
I don't think it will ever go back, it will just keep expanding and new types of programs will be developed that we're unaware of right now, you know, once the artists get into their creative mode and think about how to make other types of digital programs that people can engage with and how they can express what's going on in the world to through through these programs. There's a lot that can be done.

Unknown Speaker 48:57
It feels like we're entering a new an entirely new phase of museum curatorial practice right. And just in moving that forward again. How are people seeing, you know the adoptions of a sort of mobile hybrid sentimentality feed into the largest strategies of their institutions how these have the, how's the pivot to digital now feed fueling other elements of the institutional structure,

Unknown Speaker 49:42
jumping, jumping and maybe, maybe, answer the most of the question before I was talking to my colleagues who are at the, at the same level of the building where are the current exhibitions are and they said that they've seen really MANY new people coming in young people for the recent exhibition which was launched during the lockdown. And it was started with live streaming on with digital content. Before it was open to public after one month. So the hypothesis is that it, it helped actually the the number of visits or when, when it opened for a physical visit. So if you maybe start now and start digital to these, the exhibition or your activities and only then launch the actual physical experience, you might gain some new, new visitors. So, but maybe, maybe there's a question or answer to the question before not not the current one.

Unknown Speaker 50:53
I'd like to say something

Unknown Speaker 50:54
about, go on.

Unknown Speaker 50:55
If I made dials.

Unknown Speaker 50:58
I just couldn't find my unmute button to agree

Unknown Speaker 51:04
about how, how this. The digital or the hybrid is is is affecting strategy, Or how it's feeding into the overall strategy, at least as a National Gallery, as a public service institution. Tax funded, very much with a public mission. And the notion of providing, you know, raw materials for democratic citizenship is very high, when it comes to, you know, opening up the digital gateways here, not only, you know, the, the online collection as, as a resource, but also opening up the mind of the museum after staff, to interact with the surrounding world, and becoming a platform for the debates and the creative actions and communities that people want us to be in that way I really agree with what you're saying Nina there's no going back from here. Because when we use digital in in a sustainable way. There are MANY dark sides of digital, but when we find the ethically sound, and the sustainable ways of integrating it into museum practice, it really supports. The initial idea of museums of being platforms or places or literacy for enlightenment, communities, for being

Unknown Speaker 53:06
a muse, I mean, a museum is a muse. And that doesn't mean just for people who are going into museums and paying the fee. This is for everyone in the world, the arts have such power, to you know bring about change in the world and make the world a better place. So telling the stories that are within the art collections and relating them to people's lives and to the world into the future. This has such a profound power that needs to be tapped much further, bring it out to the general public who don't go to museums, they need it more than the people who do

Unknown Speaker 53:57
more. Oh, go on. Sorry,

Unknown Speaker 53:59
I was just gonna say just to add to that that I think, you know, you know even a place like the Met which has had such a robust investment in digital for a long time, I think, even our internal constituents were I think surprised by how important our pivot to kind of an offline only museum was during the shutdown of the pandemic I think it really did. I saw a note from our colleagues at the rice Museum and the chat about it speeding up kind of conversations and I do think that reality check of this is not just a nice to have right this is not something that is just a kind of, you know, a good activity that one ought to be doing and it's a really essential right it's gone from being, you know, sort of, not the side hustle, it really has to be an essential part of museum practice and you know I think Maria is talking about it, you know, really eloquently in terms of how it how it shapes curatorial thinking in it. and I think, you know, Nina your perspective on kind of how it engages our public I think that's really such a, such a lesson that we've seen with a pandemic, I mean, you know, as I said the man has huge collections online but we, our ability to actually pivot during shutdown and point to really meaningful content, meant that, you know, our website. Website Traffic increase you know it was the contrary of what happened in a lot of other organizations that didn't have some of the evergreen content that collections based content can really help, you know, feed into so I think, you know as much as I am a champion of not thinking about the music website as, you know, the measure of success for the hybrid museum idea I think it does teach us that people needed these resources and they will continue to need them right online education is only going to grow from here. And so I think that's that's a really important kind of alignment for our for our sector to be thinking about.

Unknown Speaker 55:52
Thank you, Sophie, and to finish from that wonderful thought, and I completely wholeheartedly agree with the last three points. Again, I thought this might happen, we have a conversation that I wish could last an hour and a half or two, but we, coming right up against the clock. So in the last three or four minutes I just want to open this out to the floor to see if there is anyone out there who has a specific question they'd like to present to the panel. Now, so far, no, no questions to anyone now is your analysis your, your chance if you've got a question that you'd like to ask, I mean I will if we wait well while we're waiting for that one I just would like to ask one because I know this is something that we're all struggling with is the notion of evaluation of a hybrid Museum, I don't know if anyone has come across or is all can share the sort of metrics, they're looking at. So can you just talk to point that slightly by saying that, you know, maybe the website isn't the metric, but are you guys looking at something or how are you, broadly, looking at it and without giving away all your secrets.

Unknown Speaker 56:57
Yeah, no, and I would like to share all of our all of our secrets I mean, you know, we're really working on evaluation frameworks all the time and actually I see Elena is on this call and she's really the expert in this field on helping us to do that, you know, but I would say I think it's, if your goal is to share knowledge and to be an institution of, you know, an encyclopedic institution like the Met then the ROI isn't just about, you know how MANY sessions and did somebody click on your thing right it should really be about who you are reaching so you know I think that's where that distributed museum idea is so important to me because it's not just about did everybody make it here but can we be, you know we have, We're reaching over 250 million people on Wikipedia because of our integration of the mass collection on Wikipedia. That to me is just as important a metric, it may be more important metric than if somebody, you know engages with an article on our on our website. So I think the who you're trying to reach is so so important and, and then what happens to that right, did they have, what kind of experience did they have was it a learning experience was it something that surprised them was it something that was fun, right and understanding motivation as part of your metric for success rather than just pure numbers.

Unknown Speaker 58:10
Thank you, Sophie, anyone

Unknown Speaker 58:11
else. Yeah. I will say that one way that I can measure how MANY people are experiencing the work is if you look at the actual pictures in the slides that I have where you see hundreds hundreds of 1000s of people have seen her his registered in their subconscious whether they're, you know, spending two seconds looking at it or even like Piazza Duomo in Milan, you know, every weekend there there were like, I don't know how MANY hundreds of 1000s of people the top picture up there, would go through the, you know, and Time Square One artwork throughout one month, gets 560,000 people within that area. At that point in time. Over the course of a month.

Unknown Speaker 59:09
Thank you. And guys, I'm really sorry to have to do this but we are literally out of time, however, I encourage you to run screen chase to the next session, which is going to be led by the wonderful Torill Haugen on a specific hybrid museum experience that session will be starting in 15 minutes. And just before we go, also if you're more interested in finding out some of the more of the work of the streaming museum and a wonderful publication, produced by Nina, in conjunction with UN, there's on the streaming You can download and read a piece, wonderful piece, which looks at the work of the UX Well, Nina quickly you describe it.

Unknown Speaker 59:54
Do you have a picture of it there. No, I'm a very high Centerpoint now I have it right here if you can see at Centerpoint now we produce this for the 75th anniversary of the United Nations so it is putting together, art, and the different goals of the UN and the UN Sustainable Development Goals so art plays a very important role in the publication. So you can download. You can download it 160 pages, you can read it online on the website.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:27
Thank you, Nina, and thank you everyone for taking by it's been a really fascinating conversation, and we'll see as MANY of you in the next chatter chat as possible. That's all. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:38
Thank you. Hi.