Current Horizons of Latin American Museums

Unknown Speaker 14:54
welcome everyone. We are here, ready. It's a pleasure to present the session, a current horizon, so blacking American museums in this specific day of Latin America within MCM MCM conference. Really, it's a pleasure to be here. In company of three main figures of what is happening with digital in this continent. It's we are going to talk for a while about these issues and all that we have medical Garcia medical comes from websitess. He's the director of the Tibba Foundation, theory and practical of the arts, a nonprofit organization dedicated to pro molting, reflection and contract contact between different cultures, and also to promote positive challenge changes in Latin American museums. They run a conference for MANY years and they recap different international museums of Latin America. Speaking in there also we have an retina Andrei sees the director of the Bacchus Flora Zoom. It's an interactive museum with planetary Oman and aquarium in the city of Medellin in Colombia. He has been working in the management team for more than 10 years and also the director of museography in Nova to innovation development within that machine, so we set a very good example, not only from the whole Latin America like America, but from a specific point of view of our concrete Museum in Colombia. But also we have Florencia Crossett. A Florentia is coming from both sides and I think the nurse will see his downers view from what is happening now with digital technology sees more geologist he has a degree in cultural industries and in the digital convergence see has worked in Argentine in the national museum since 2014. And then we'll sell you rudia he now sees working at a retirement Zoom. Sees professor at the Mexican Institute of Galleria I served as CEO and also works as an independent patrol manager. So he'll we are this is the scenario this is the panorama we have for this afternoon this morning for you this midday whatever in the globe where you are. We start a medical please call your speaker explain us what the title is now for your point of view in Latin America and present you will be better please.

Unknown Speaker 18:07
Thank you very much, Anna and the organizers as well. I mean, it's not that unusual that Latin America to get a chance to speak when there's English spoken confidence. So I think I'm grateful for that and I hope it's made more often and I hope we gave a good impression. So you bow in inviting our colleagues in the future. So but as I am to talk about the current horizons of Latin American museums, first of all,

Unknown Speaker 18:41
I suppose that you know it but the idea of Latin America doesn't really mean much. countries such as Mexico with 130 million inhabitants cannot be compared to Uruguay, for example, with only 3.5 Millions and it is difficult trying to bring Andean regions and Brazil under the same culture of growth. But we talk about horizons and what can we learn from this part of the world? We may be surprised by some social attitudes and similarities quite different from those of Europe and the so called Global North. And museums have a role to play bring in agency to those identified social values of which will involve and speaking about but right now a dramatic separation of the here and now has taken effect with us. Not fully not to see it. There is a gap between time and space historically necessary for the formation of a community. We are close with those who are far and we're doing now, but also far from those who are near time and space have been replaced by approximation and remoteness, which makes us lose our sights of bodies and our eyes. And how does this affect all the strong events that strike our societies is in we can use the decolonial turn that starts shaking museum boards from the seats, racial demands that wasn't taken seriously for decades now promoting urgent agency forced migrations and inequity, which are now unbearable for any decent conscience among the museum constituents. And that is may go on and on. Carefully drawing the current scene of what may be defined as a change of EDA and all of it in front of our screen if not arise. The social organization of care is a main demand demand at this time. In our region, solidarity is already at the core of our interrelations and the cultural institutions need to adapt it teams and votes to be an essential part in the organization of his extraordinary potential of solidarity in benefit of the most vulnerable even if almost all museums have discussed virtual ways of contributing to the problem. Very few museums have taken direct action out in the open. A deeper Foundation, the one I direct theory and practice of yards. We understood that the secluded months could be essential to plan actions together with a selected group of homes for museums from different regions of the country, about the best post COVID moves to be done together with the vulnerable communities that surround them. That is the work we have done during six month weekly meetings. We redefined in that case, the mission of which museum consolidated the working group of staff promoted regular meetings with community delegates from the vicinities and together with them designed and built open space devices, which communities could call their own and in which they may feel comfortable to express their needs and representations with the full support of the museum's collections and personnel. As an example, the museum on PRIM informatics, which works at the southern tip of Patagonia at the University of southern Patagonia decided to take the two main difficulties of its community, the environmental damage of the discarded technological remains, and that the other end the lack of computing devices of a big percentage of the students. They organized a moving dispose and track to pick up the discarded machinery and built a moving love to turn MANY of those devices into usable computers. The other museums that we work with I said before, we're an urban history museum, an astronomical observatory, and an archaeological interpretation center, the three of them considering care as essential in working with vulnerable communities or their facilities.

Unknown Speaker 23:19
One of my favorite novelist, maybe you have read Rachel Cusk tells us about how digital culture and care are now central to our society. And I quote, a friend of mine depressed in the wake of his divorce, actually felt something akin to love, he said, for the female voice that guided him when he was driving his car so much more devotedly than his wife ever had. There has been a great harvest he said, of language and information from life. And it may have become the case that the force human was growing more substantial and more relation than the original that there was more tenderness to be had from a machine than from one owes fellow man. After all, the mechanized interface was the distillation not a one human but of MANY close quotes, loneliness, collective work, communication, gap and care. Those are issues that museums of our region are starting to address and may justify its existence at this time.

Unknown Speaker 24:43
Thank you on medical and medical a, I know him from Romain. We have involved him in the scientific committee of the conference. Of the met on friends. And it's been a pleasure to have him in there and it's been a pleasure having you here today. Yes, we will talk about this but first and let's call you on the program. Please explain us what the horizon is for you from your point of view and what the challenges are.

Unknown Speaker 25:15
Sure, and thank you very much for the invitation and to the organizers to the nCn conference. I also am happy seeing the faces of friends and colleagues, some medical and all ally in different actions for trying to make a call for museums. And, of course all the colleagues of museums that are present in this session. Well, I guess over the last few years, it's been a rush for everyone around the world. And I guess the museums has the core the big questions how our missions has shifted in a different way of owning a society that has been changed in unpredictable ways.

Unknown Speaker 26:07
being closed for a period of time with a shake, shake that for an institution that has around 600,000 visitors per year in a place where is a cradle of museum cultural institutions, and also vulnerable neighborhoods. It became like a big kind of sorrow to all of us to see such an amazing environment empty. And when you stop the engine and in a way look at yourself on how the distribution is framed. It makes you think how the knowledge gather along the years become useful in a universe that changed one day to the other. So in our case, the digital universe of course has too MANY others became the core of the institution but also it was a core not only in terms of how to serve the community, but also how to serve the people that worked inside the museum. As I've seen in MANY places in the US and in Europe, indeed, the closure the museums became into cutting the numbers of the people that are related more to the operational side. The guidance the educational team since the museum's which in a way is a loss of knowledge, a loss of opportunity. So for us in Latin America, just to think to cop the people to throw them there to their homes, is also a familiar tragedy. It's immediately it becomes into a crisis of on proportion dimensions. So it was a decision of the institution to to take off all the savings just to protect the community. That which in a way is the museum itself because it's based on relied on people. But what to do with the people when you are close. There are no tickets, there's no exhibition halls, so were to face your actions and it became like a like a chance to make an accelerated process of learning how to become a digital organization that wasn't as strong and powerful as any other digital organization to display all the resources to the communities that we serve. schools, families, regular visitors, and of course, a big community that was all in the jails of their own homes in the middle of these big crisis. So the museum is started to create well if if we in our day daily basis design exhibits and create contents on experiences, what we have to do is to display that experience itself into the digital arena. And that is not a simple challenge. But in a way a museum is also a cultural, in our case, scientifically cultural institution that was that we made the call of how do we serve the people. And there were a lot of needs in the middle of this situation. For example, the most vulnerable neighborhoods they weren't allow even to get outside the roles. So how the resources of the museum could be displayed on that environments to create learning experiences under these circumstances. So we display for example, digital planetariums that are like big giant cinema screens. We call our colleagues of of the Philharmonic Orchestra and try to deliver live shows in the in the parks of places that were more or less empty, but became the decor of the call of everyone in the neighborhood to participate there, or how all the exhibits and the contents are designed to create an experience in the digital universe that we share where the parents and the children become engaged with the activities of the Museum Science Center's has a lot of experiments. So how do we display all these experiments in a way that people could reach them and at the same time, how do we display to communicational campaigns, the values that the museum is standing for? For example, we in Latin America have big problems related with the gender relationships between men and women. And it is in a patriarchal society, a common ground to see the insults using expression of animals, like a snake like a like a wolf, like a, like different animals that in a way are portrayed like negative impressions. How do we translate that into good interactions? How the birches of different animals are not insults but are opportunities to display different contents. So all the contents of the museum became now in the arena of the digital but with the resources of designers, mediators, educators inside the museum, thinking in how to display that to the communities to the homes, even when you don't have a cashback on these actions. And I guess the the big results on that is that the museum became more diluted in the in the in the social gathering. And that means that these social interactions related to the eating around activities, the cultural framework of actions indeed, we, for the first time have a meeting where we have 100,000 people connected just to see a live show on the universe using a YouTube tool, deliver us a different way of understanding what can do so then the strengths come out. The museum has the power to call and invite the big voices of the intellectual scientific world and have the resources and the social media to make the call to the public to be in contact directly with them. And I think that that's that came to stay to keep going on the on the on the access of the museum in a different perspective. And today where we are filming is that MANY of the concepts that the contents that we used to design, they are now designed in terms of, of a collective call of participation of the public. So MANY exhibitions and contents are the result of public campaigns of how the people can photograph their birds, their windows, their clouds. Their skies, and that could be display inside the museum as another chance of an exhibition. So I guess the museum is showing us in these times that the core of the museum is not the place itself. It's its capability to to deliver new capabilities for the people giving access to resources and contents that concentrate and that concentrate the talents of the museum as a way to display in different arenas. The museum is just one of these arenas, but now we have the arena of the digital universe of the social networks, and also have the public conversations where the contents of the museum could be displayed. So I guess this is more or less the framework where we are moving right now as an hybrid institution trying to redefine its own identity but also, of course, keeping on the line of how to deliver the mission in a more connected world.

Unknown Speaker 33:47
Thank you on this, thank you for explaining. Yes, it's really a pleasure. To also have you here. I love that example of how you change the meaning of a word of Sora for example, which is folks know, the female of the box and the sending child so maybe making it what are the different meanings what this animal can do and order. So it's great. Also address Alana was in Bahrain in remain event. So it's a pleasure to having you here. And this next meeting, or what I'm thinking notes, this debate is gonna be interesting, but first I want to also present a floating process floating to please can you explain us? What are the horizon from your point of view?

Unknown Speaker 34:39
Yeah, of course. First of all, I I want to thank you and your organization for innovation and innovation. First of all, I would like to focus mainly on the opportunities that I believe but I can tell you this year because they feel that I now have a second term in order to embrace reality. But before that, I just want to mention what I see as the barriers that we have. I would say maybe Latin America this time. One the first one I believe is budget. We have more budget in general in the cultural field. This is not something specifically for museums sector. It also happens in education and has another but this is a point I wanted to highlight. And on the other hand, we also have what I what I see is that we still have like old fashioned mindset in terms of free floating in the museum sector. Because still MANY professionals see virtuality as a kind of a threat for the maybe the traditional architectures of a museum. I just wanted to check to mention that and in terms of opportunity that I was doing before, I think we as museum, we have a great opportunity to generate Win Win projects with other creative industries, especially as we were not born in the digital area. I believe that the kind of project especially I'm referring to and I have started an ally other potential alliances with the gaming industry. You know, that you know, to today, new languages in order to accomplish our institutional objectives of education and heritage promotion. Because I felt that we have to analyze we what as museums we have to offer, and I believe that the increasing value of our collections no more inequality is really important. And on the other hand, we also have our know how, in terms of storytellers with young have always created content, have always created stories on the radio, and we have that roster. And on the other hand, the gaming industry, also the audiovisual industry, need all the time constantly, they need content in order to grow. So there is where I see like possible match a possible point in common to start working together a great interview, once again, is to get or learn how to, you know, embrace new languages, not just like physical exhibits or visual experiences. And they learn how to do it the they would have like a really exchange of an AHA between both sectors and products abroad and in sample and our design example which is video game and online video game. Free for free. Which is, it was made was conceived but by are from the collections and the history of the building of a museum in when Osiris which is Montana. I know from a translation for that, but it's a building from the 70s from the from the 70s. And really odd thing. And so the building story of living thing, and also the history of a hearing on Oxendine pairing of the defendants work and they give up altogether to gray the senior when he was an event and graphic adventure which is three and a person in the world could play. He was taught for children, but any person could be played. And I wanted to highlight how these new projects and how these video games could help us as museums visit the National Museum based in with a fire but at the National Museum should reach a broader audience if we were from all over the country at least, and this project could help them to achieve that goal. On the other hand, I brought another opportunity I believe we could, we could explore which is the the fact of opening opening the competency and confidence by using different or by creating actually.

Unknown Speaker 39:18
Okay. Okay, so by creating new friends, open access data labs from our collections. I know this could be a hot issue of discussion in North America and maybe some European institutions too. But the reality is that in Argentina, most museums are public. And most of them not every single one but most of them don't have a fundraising logic. So I believe that the creation of these open access catalogs could really democratize our collections are heritage but also dynamize the society in general, as I said before, if we really release this content and the data and photographs and images of other collections, I am sure that different sectors of this orange economy would get benefit from that. I also thinking about teachers from different parts of the of our country, who would be able to use these items and information to prepare the lessons rather than go to European for example collections to prepare them. So we would be like also stressing our identity at Argentinians. I know so why not the academy. I am sure that you pick up any researcher here. If I tell you that the various to get access to the information and images they need will be would be taking now they will be pleased about different sectors of the society good get benefit from these points from this strategy, but also then you see I would get benefit. I believe that religion this content and and promoting different sectors of the society to appropriate these content collections would also like kind of create different communities around the topic of our museum around our content, but also around the sub products that could be graded. For example, I feel as serious as either being a less than school lesson or a lecture or epic. So just to sum up, or just to close, actually. I believe that you know world characterized by transmedia content by gamification by perfumer. In a way we're discussing how to develop the metaverse. Museums should embrace neutrality in a really meaningful way not just because it is trendy in order to keep on being relevant for current and further genetic

Unknown Speaker 42:01
issues. Thank you, Florentia. Yes, thank you very much for being here. It's very interesting what also is happening during the term Zoom and yes, I want to know more about this video when you are developing and the possible scenario. You're getting our point which is very critical, which is the own found racing for some museums. The nature is that Latin America is a whole continent. So we have different perceptions. We have different scenarios depending on the country. So we were talking about this the other day with founders also. Maybe they will assume to Mexico or the monsoons in Colombia don't have the same situation in Chile or Argentina. So there are MANY scenarios also MANY different kinds of museums. But is there any essence of what is happening now with digital or what is happening now in museums in Latin America? I really see that there is a difference between Spanish museums and Latin American museums. I didn't know what all what these differences but when you were three talking identify a word that all you three remarked which is community. I think community is what makes the difference with all the machine China, the machines that have practices, what makes in what involves all the people so it's not only speaking about the educational department of a machine that makes an activity to involve the audentes. I'm speaking that there are very good practices in that sense to imply community in the meaning of what the musuem means. What is what Andres was explaining before so how to get to those people that even though have a internet connection or digital connection or how to do it to those community, somebody who said before we need to focus to do those axioms. Do you agree with that? Do you think there's something that can be an umbrella to all of the practices that are in beaming here, there are some advantages that we can take? Or do you want to talk about NTm Raisa Marico. About this or just to also comment on the other states? What are the horizons?

Unknown Speaker 44:41
Well, I jumped into the water. Indeed, I think that all of us are facing the big question why we exist, why we why why are we necessary and of course, in the framework, where digital information is flooding everywhere, then the question becomes more clear and bigger. Is it relevant to go and visit the museum? Is it good is why I should take that decision to to jump into into the place and this is not a new question is not only about the pandemic is the permanent question about why a society decides to set up a museum or why a community or people decides to create a situation where it's important to tell a story about memory, about science, about history, about art about everything? And I guess there is a part of the answer. It's related to how do we understand humanity and the importance of culture as a as a way of connecting societies because of the kind of experiences that we face inside the museums. So then when you pull off the museum, the building the exhibition, then this question, become smart, more loud? And then is the answer The building the answer the exhibition, the answer the phenomenon that you're displaying in there, and I get that, that that's well, or at least in the place where I live, I can see there is an outage of content, of relevance of identity of how communities feel that they can access and they are embraced by the dignity of knowledge as part of a global patrimony of a human patrimony. So then the question about the exhibition, the building the services, the ticketing and so on, becomes like an in a second level, which is of course, very important and in terms of sustainability, very important. But then, the brings you back to the essential questions about why do you exist? And I guess these are the questions that are usually at the beginning of the creation of institutions, and then when the institution is in a way close then the question becomes the thing again. So I guess for me the answer about this trend of this phenomena is that we exist to deliver these dignifying good content, experiences and excuses to gather each other about discovery. About memory about reflection about MANY things. And of course, right now, I guess that finding that this mission that his role of being part of the cultural frame of the neighborhoods and the territories where we live, and the society that we live, becomes more relevant in a way that the museum is like a persona and not only an institution, it's kind and I think that one of the learnings for me in this digital universe in the last couple of years is that the museum isn't anymore like a public provided service of something. It's, it's an identity is a persona it's it's something that in a way has feelings, emotions that feel solidarity with the place where it is and also feels rage on the on justices that are around and in a way created ration to avoid those barriers or in a way doesn't make makes us better societies to be connected in different ways. So if that conditions are not in the code, that is a problem, I guess.

Unknown Speaker 48:26
In fact also reality no so maybe I said before politically positioning and tech making decisions for the society, what do you think of medical coding?

Unknown Speaker 48:38
But I think the right question has to do with are we necessary? What does it mean for institutional to be necessary? Is not because we the staff or the director of things, it's a good place to work at rather is what does a society feeling about that necessity does is it can it be compared to a hospital to library or a post office places that work together with the museums and together with the archives that were meant in, in the beginning of the nations of the US the columns as the pillars of society, as there was an idea of a nation that needed this artifacts, this places institutions to build an identity an existing common society? But now, a century later? I mean, the state has, has lost much of its interest in funding MANY of this culture of places and and we haven't a been able to get the interest real important interest of society because we were not clever enough as to show the necessity of what we're doing. When I say necessity, I'm sick for example, when this pandemic started, for museums in a rush tried to do virtual communications and programs and turn their their programs their normal programs into visual programs, but MANY of most of them were unnecessary. They were filling the space but they were unnecessary, very few. And I think that under enrolled Dan is one of the examples with explorer magazine is incredible place and the way they worked with that with those contents. But then those are fantastic examples, but they're not the most often in Latin America that are MANY, MANY small regional museums. That I find that a fantastic platform for the development of those more societies and to work with discuss and appeal what is going on and not to be neutral to the current accounts. Now we need more work to do that happen. And digital only if considered only as, as a technical resource is not enough. There is a digital culture behind it. That has to be interpreted assumed and and really make it much with the goals that we see now. Most most necessary in our time.

Unknown Speaker 51:45
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. America is so inspiring.

Unknown Speaker 51:49
For me yet I really Yeah. I agree with America that at least here they will like lots of webinars and workshops and everything that went on nine like a translation because they've been damaged. And I believe that MANY of it didn't reach to the public because they probably do. So I really believe that we have to pay attention to how cultural consumption habits have changed, how new generations are. If new generations I go into the museum and why the wisdom and I'm ready to stop being afraid of neutrality. We want to sample your museum maybe we will have to change I think we are changing. We mainly have to create, of course a physical impressive offer but also digital enters on hybrid and it's okay with that. And really to start changing our minds in terms of going

Unknown Speaker 52:55
Yep, absolutely. And those senior year, so the Latin musuem char, creating those communities so from this community, MANY projects can come have a call breaking code, working with different realities that we have in front of our door, know what we can do with it, or maybe inside and from the wall more why they're valiant so I think we'd have five minutes seven, eight minutes left. Please let's see what is in the chat. Let's see what all people want to comment. Here Tim Kong says is a useful challenge to framing how we and why we do what we do. How do we do more than just feeling the space based theme Do you want to share this with us? Also, MANY you can ask you can click on your microphone and activate on team if you want to also wanna get into say a yes why would you Why do we have gone so philosophical? Right? What is our purpose in our own community context and do you want to talk about it? Maybe share this with us? No, yes, we continue. Do you have also if you have an any other question, you can put it on the chat or Yes, hang on the hand. To speak with us or activate your macro. So you can talk. I need to apologize because of the tax because I did an order to a loan for my partner in the university. I say level four. And I thought it was our private link. So everybody heard the sorry for that. And then Clara Marine, who is here sees part of remainers Well, Santa Clara, if you want to talk if you want to say something of course you're very very welcome. If don't, Andres medico. Florencia, do you want to see anything else?

Unknown Speaker 55:15
I want to ask a question. Ana, you listen to me online about how you think it's going to be the future of a different heritage because it's going to be in the future and the present already detalhe a date itself beyond the material? No. So how do you think is going to be handled always because right now submit. Amir has no we don't know exactly what this is. Suppose that we need to be reserved for the future. MANY people think that the data assets will be safe forever and this is not true. We already know that. Things this appears from internet I all my faces for instance, were around a kind of media in 2001. That doesn't exist anymore. So what do you think I believe is question of the dollar assets to be precise or to be

Unknown Speaker 56:15
fired, maybe now. Combat by the dollar art with

Unknown Speaker 56:20
I think it's with money. And cf I don't remember the letters is the non non tokens,

Unknown Speaker 56:32
these tokens by sweetness. So guess what? questions

Unknown Speaker 56:38
I would bring into the an example. Over over a traditional Natural Science Museum like the one existed in Rosario, Argentina, which got burned out. And the good the bad news was that the museum collection was almost all burned. The good news was the that the museum could be rethought all over and not having a not having all those pieces in bombed pieces of old sort of species had a very bright director rethinking. For example, there was a giraffe there was there was kept in bomb get off of course and that was put at the door of the of the museum with a sign saying this is not a giraffe. It says a piece of the collection of the museum and so that sparked all different sorts of dialogues and questions. And the whole museum was remade and reshaped in that in that in those terms. So I think as long as we can spark a dialogue of all types, even with the among the visitors, which don't have to do with collections, but among themselves, and then who are you why are you here and who's your mother, whatever. And then the two spark dialogues make people talk make people feel me people get the sense of community is for me, what can save the New Zealand from being obsolete? Whatever the collections are.

Unknown Speaker 58:26
Well, I want to jump in there and saying that but these last year for us was a double challenge. The first one, of course, was the pandemic but also in the last six months. There was a social burst in Colombia, critical, massive social bursts, where 1000s of people came out into the streets to well, more or less to protest and afterwards to burn off the country itself. And and we are the museum. We're in the core of the city where most most of these marches happen. We faced not directly the museum but in the neighborhood rioting and a lot of phenomenon. In a way we still have some sequence of interactions. And then it was it became so clear that we were in the middle of a new kind of historical moment. That then the question is what what is happening? What means what's going on here is, is there something that we should be saying or even collecting? And then I guess that well, taking the words of a colleague of ours from Argentina celsion Bush, he said a phrase that that stuck into my mind. He said the future of museums is to think in the present and challenging world where the things are changing then the the museum is more question about what what are you doing right now on what means your mission in this precise moment where the social or the or the stuff that is going around? It's it's changing right now I am in the Antiochian museum. And it was a perfect excuse in the middle of the pandemics to try to gather the expressions of the silence of the of the city to try to bring it under Social burst and try to bring it into the museums to say these are the impressions of what we're having. I'm not sure if that is heritage. perspective, I think it is where you don't have the enough time to understand what's going on but you know that that the museum is witnessing this present and for example, we the first day that the city was closed? The first thing that I say is I asked permission to the city to allow me to take a video on the city empty because the was this was going to be the very first time in history for a complete generation that we were willing to see and witness a CD empty completely empty from the air. And so these become into immediate heritage patrimony to what reasons but it will be in a couple of years. That in a way that to be witnessing there. So so in a way I think the heritage thing is not only about the the object, the special piece, but the registration of what's going on right now and how we are understanding and how the museum is engaged in this conversation. Not only in a cold, empty glass case, but also as as a part of the conversation the feelings of the institution. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:38
I'm afraid he's here to say what we need to close. We have for more and more and more hours but very interesting. Also coming from Deborah. I'm sorry, we don't have any more time left. No, Eric, you're on mute. Eric,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:56
we're meeting in 14 minutes. Sorry about that. Thank you. First of all, thank you. Undress, Florencia, America and Anna for this wonderful session and for joining our conference into conversation. It is so meaningful to have you among us and we will be doing a recap in about 15 minutes. You're all invited to join us.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:16
You want to continue this discussion with see you now get to recap.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:20
Exactly. Thank you so much, everyone. Take care. Okay. John, I thank you so Oh, bye bye.